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Started By
Message
re: The Law by Frédéric Bastiat
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:56 am to Robin Masters
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:56 am to Robin Masters
quote:
An owner can lend, lease or bestow onto someone else who would then posses.
This all reinforces that ownership is a social construct.
3
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:59 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Right but that generally stems from ego,
I am not sure animals have a sense of ego. It is more base emotions and needs.
quote:
People in our society are not fighting for survival. They are arguing over stuff.
Very true, although that stuff makes survival way more easy.
quote:
We don’t leave food and water in wills and estates.
No, we leave a legacy. A legacy that our survivors can then trade in for an even easier path than we had.
I do not think that is a bad tradeoff.
Would like to ask, what do you believe should be done with say, my estate, once I am gone? Should I not decide who gets what I worked hard for? Or is there something else that you would feel is better?
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 11:59 am
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:02 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I think religion is separate.
In many areas, religion was the first major way to govern any gathering of people larger than a familial tribe.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 12:02 pm
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:02 pm to SlowFlowPro
Ok yes to all of that. I see what you mean.
I typically cringe at the “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual” distinctions, but this is a time where I would separate spirituality from organized religion. In modern times, most people seem to view religion as a very personal thing.
I typically cringe at the “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual” distinctions, but this is a time where I would separate spirituality from organized religion. In modern times, most people seem to view religion as a very personal thing.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Well done
In terms of society?
Power begat laws begat religion begat rights
...but agriculture allowed all of this to occur.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:07 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Before this he says that we were given force to defend ourselves and our stuff.
Still can. It is called “self defense.”
quote:
we perverted it to to use as a means to exploit and harm others?
You mean harm, such as when the children whom were attacked and molested by people that you chose to put above them? That kind of harm?
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:08 pm to 4cubbies
quote:But in historical terms, the terms of your question, religion becomes a different issue.
I typically cringe at the “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual” distinctions
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:09 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
In modern times, most people seem to view religion as a very personal thing.
Most? Define this.
I would suggest that if you are involved in a global faith, that a centralized belief system is uniting past the point of individuality.
For example, Mass is Mass, no matter what continent that I celebrated it on.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:11 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
This all reinforces that ownership is a social construct.
Is?
Or can be?
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:14 pm to jimmy the leg
quote:
Is?
Or can be?
Private property is most definitely a social construct.
quote:
A social construct is any category or thing that is made real by convention or collective agreement
Without society to agree that yes, we do infact have private property rights, private property wouldn't even be an idea.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:15 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
This all reinforces that ownership is a social construct.
No not in the leas. It is however proof that ownership and possession are not one and the same.
Regarding ownership as a social construct, would a persons raised alone in the wilderness wake every morning and wonder if he can travel with his knife, blanket and canteen OR would he need to consider that he may not have the right to take them since they don’t belong to him.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:16 pm to UtahCajun
quote:
The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.
Rouseau
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:18 pm to Robin Masters
quote:
Regarding ownership as a social construct, would a persons raised alone in the wilderness wake every morning and wonder if he can travel with his knife, blanket and canteen OR would he need to consider that he may not have the right to take them since they don’t belong to him.
I imagine his concept involved more analysis on his ability to stop others from taking them from him, and his ability to take things from others. I doubt it involved anything close to what we'd describe as a conceptualization of "rights" involved in the stuff.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:I don't have a fundamental problem. Rights derive from the requirements of human survival as a rational being. They are not arbitrary, they’re tied to objective conditions necessary for the flourishing of humankind.
This is where you get into the fundamental problem of natural rights.
Therefore there must be a right to self-defense and it does not enter the chain after law or permission. It enters at the point where survival itself requires the preservation of agency. If a man has a claim to his own life, then he must also have a claim to the conditions necessary to maintain it: the freedom to think, judge, act, produce, and defend himself against coercive interference.
This description should not be confused with a description of how societies often recognize, codify, or violate rights.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:19 pm to UtahCajun
quote:
I am not sure animals have a sense of ego. It is more base emotions and needs.
agreed, which is why they don't will their possessions to their offspring.
quote:
No, we leave a legacy. A legacy that our survivors can then trade in for an even easier path than we had.
Legacies aren't tangible. (ETA: this might be provocative and subjective)
quote:
Would like to ask, what do you believe should be done with say, my estate, once I am gone? Should I not decide who gets what I worked hard for? Or is there something else that you would feel is better?
I'm not really moralizing any of this. I'm just saying its unnatural and ego-based. We can all draw our own conclusions.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:22 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:
Rights derive from the requirements of human survival as a rational being. They are not arbitrary, they’re tied to objective conditions necessary for the flourishing of humankind.
quote:
. If a man has a claim to his own life, then he must also have a claim to the conditions necessary to maintain it:
That's describing more of a commentary on power than "rights" (especially "natural rights").
Again, this is the problem with "natural rights". It's just vague, malleable language like "lawfare" or "globalism".
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:22 pm to Kraut Dawg
quote:
Kraut Dawgquote:
These concepts aren't made up. You're wrong. They're real. But why don't people like you don't like that. And why? Because “The proper purpose of the law is to use the power of its collective force to stop this fatal tendency to plunder instead of to work.”
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:23 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
But in historical terms, the terms of your question, religion becomes a different issue.
Right. It's a function of the government.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:26 pm to jimmy the leg
quote:
I would suggest that if you are involved in a global faith, that a centralized belief system is uniting past the point of individuality.
Christianity is based on a personal relationship with God. Prayer is conversation with God. You can't experience a prayer for anyone else. It's personal.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 12:28 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Ownership is a made up concept.
I would reject this if your argument is that ownership isn’t a natural construct.
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