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re: The Law by Frédéric Bastiat

Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:54 am to
Posted by UtahCajun
Member since Jul 2021
6362 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:54 am to
quote:

Toddlers have a concept of possession. Possession isn’t perpetual though. Ownership is a made up concept

Maybe, but pretty much every higher lifeform recognizes and fights for what they deem is theirs
Posted by RohanGonzales
Pronoun: Whatever
Member since Apr 2024
11294 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:56 am to
The law is meant to serve lawyers. If you have a case coming up the only constant is that lawyers will be paid.
Posted by Gifman
Clearwater Beach, FL
Member since Jan 2021
19194 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:57 am to
quote:

SlowFlowPro


Why are you arguing with your alter?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
479263 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:59 am to
quote:

Why are you arguing with your alter?


4cubbies is not my alter.
Posted by Meauxjeaux
102836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
47185 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:08 am to
Being intellectual is a bit of a stretch for you.. I mean you seem to have some capabilities, but an analogy is, some guys throw an easy 95 mph fastball while others are max effort to get there.

You appear to be the latter and that's not sustainable.
Posted by Meauxjeaux
102836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
47185 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:11 am to
quote:

4Chubbs fancies herself an intellectual...


lol I should have scrolled further before I made my post.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
61949 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:13 am to
quote:

Possession is not ownership and vice versa.


Ownership is perpetual possession.

That’s the social construct/made up part.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 11:14 am
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
61949 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:16 am to
quote:

Maybe, but pretty much every higher lifeform recognizes and fights for what they deem is theirs


Right but that generally stems from ego, not some natural right. Especially in modern times.

People in our society are not fighting for survival. They are arguing over stuff. We don’t leave food and water in wills and estates.

Edit I can see how an argument can be made that the things left in wills could be traded for food and water, but that’s really not what happens.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 11:17 am
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
61949 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:19 am to
quote:

Power begat laws begat religion begat rights


The order of this seems off to me.

Force begat power begat governance begat rights.

I think religion is separate.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
479263 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:19 am to
quote:

I think religion is separate.

Over time, Sumer didn't
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
61949 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:21 am to
I don’t know enough about that civilization to make any connections.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
61949 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:28 am to
quote:

Society learned pretty early if you combined the threat/power of the state with threat/power of religion is was much more effective in ruling over people.


This is really religion as a form of government though. I can see how religion can be viewed as a type of government, because it tends to contain rules to live by but they are not imposed through threat of force (here at least).
Posted by soonerinlOUisiana
South of I-10
Member since Aug 2012
2365 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:30 am to
quote:

What came first: laws or rights?


Under American law, rights came first, as they were endowed by the Creator. Just read the COTUS. It establishes a government, grants it powers, and then places limits on those powers for the purpose of protecting rights that the citizens already possess. That is why you don’t actually have constitutional rights. You have constitutional protections. Your rights are God-given.
Posted by Robin Masters
Birmingham
Member since Jul 2010
36475 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:36 am to
quote:

Ownership is perpetual possession.


Hardly

An owner can lend, lease or bestow onto someone else who would then posses.

The concept of ownership would have been first articulated when the use of a name came into practice.
“MY name is Grok!”


Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
479263 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:38 am to
quote:

This is really religion as a form of government though. I


Religion is only a reinforcement within the structure of government, in that system. The same as the threat of taxing or jail/death. It's just another institutional arm of the government.

Modern people REE at this discussion b/c they think of their own religion but that's the wrong framing. None of our religions today existed at that time, so this has no overlap with any religion today. Hopefully its easier to conceptualize without the knee-jerk defense of ones own religion, with that framing. I'm sure you can think of plenty of examples of groups/states where a false religion/philosophy was used in the same reinforcement method.
Posted by LSUnKaty
Katy, TX
Member since Dec 2008
4937 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:38 am to
quote:

Power begat laws begat religion begat rights
Where, then, does the right to self-defense enter that chain?

Human survival presupposes agency. Agency gives rise to reason, and reason is man’s fundamental tool for survival. In a state of nature, man possesses a basic right to survive; and if survival requires reason, it follows that he must also possess the right to protect his capacity to reason.

From this, it follows further that the conditions necessary to preserve that capacity (life, autonomy, and freedom from coercion) are themselves fundamental, a priori rights.

Thus the sequence is better understood as:
survival -> reason -> rights -> laws.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
479263 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:43 am to
quote:

Where, then, does the right to self-defense enter that chain?



That entirely depends on what you think creates that right. *ETA: or if it even is a "right"

This is where you get into the fundamental problem of natural rights.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 11:45 am
Posted by Robin Masters
Birmingham
Member since Jul 2010
36475 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:47 am to
quote:

Religion is only a reinforcement within the structure of government, in that system


Seems to me that the more appropriate comparison is that government is a form of religion.
Posted by bbvdd
Memphis, TN
Member since Jun 2009
28796 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:53 am to
quote:

Ownership is perpetual possession.

That’s the social construct/made up part.


You come into my house and try to take any of my possessions and you will lose all your rights.
Posted by Kraut Dawg
Member since Sep 2012
4787 posts
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:55 am to
quote:

Well yeah. Toddlers have a concept of possession. Possession isn’t perpetual though. Ownership is a made up concept.

Yet, you're quoting The Law?

Plunder Violates Ownership
“When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it-w/o his consent & w/o compensation, & whether by force or by fraud-to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed.”

What is Plunder?
"That a man may live & satisfy his wants by seizing & consuming the products of the labor of others. This is the origin of plunder."

These concepts aren't made up. You're wrong. They're real. But why don't people like you don't like that. And why? Because “The proper purpose of the law is to use the power of its collective force to stop this fatal tendency to plunder instead of to work.”

But that isn't what the law does any longer. “As soon as the plundered classes gain political power, they establish a system of reprisals against other classes. They do not abolish legal plunder.”
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