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re: The Atlantic publishes article claiming white folks stole 6.6 billion dollars of land
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:01 pm to HempHead
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:01 pm to HempHead
quote:I sort of agree with this, but it's definitely easy to just say. The housing side was way WAY worse.
I don't really doubt that this happened, and was done intentionally. That said, what is to be done about it? The only real way to do justice is to start at 0, not at -60. Do right now. If we try to compensate for all historical wrongdoings, then we will never accomplish anything.
1
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:04 pm to BigJim
quote:
lot of government programs DID screw black people. I didn't know about this one but it doesn't surprise me.
The little known fact they exclude as well is a ton of white farmers go broke with those Govt loan programs. The saying around here was “they give you just enough to go broke on” meaning unlike a private bank who will loan more than enough if you have good credit and assets to back it. The Govt programs have a cap on them and you have to have a great year to make it with what they give you. It’s not enough usually and you have to cut corners on things to stretch the money and this leads to poorer production and unless prices are high you’ll likely go under
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:04 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
I sort of agree with this, but it's definitely easy to just say. The housing side was way WAY worse.
I'm simply saying that there is nothing that can be done now that would not be damaging and deleterious to those who own the property lawfully. It sucks, it really does. I would be pissed as hell about it. However, you can't punish people waaaay after the fact. All you can do is ensure that it doesn't happen again, at least from a legally sanctioned/supported POV.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:10 pm to HempHead
quote:Well, actually you can. That's the entire concept of reparations, which has a very established presence in the modern history of major sovereigns.
However, you can't punish people waaaay after the fact
How would the government writing a check to someone who could prove harm be "damaging and deleterious" to those who own the property lawfully? Is someone talking about taking it back and handing it to someone else?
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:12 pm to HempHead
quote:
That said, what is to be done about it? The only real way to do justice is to start at 0, not at -60.
Not if you're trying to frick over white people in general.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:13 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Well, actually you can. That's the entire concept of reparations, which has a very established presence in the modern history of major sovereigns.
Genuine question: when has that been done outside of a nationstate to nationstate sort of deal?
quote:
How would the government writing a check to someone who could prove harm be "damaging and deleterious" to those who own the property lawfully? Is someone talking about taking it back and handing it to someone else?
Because they bear part of the cost. Worse, it burdens those not responsible with the cost as well.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:17 pm to HempHead
quote:The American government to Japanese-Americans in the 1980s.
Genuine question: when has that been done outside of a nationstate to nationstate sort of deal?
quote:You mean because they're taxpayers? Meh. They'll survive. We seem to despite the farm subsidies we pay.
Because they bear part of the cost.
quote:This just makes no sense - the US government WAS responsible.
Worse, it burdens those not responsible with the cost as well.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:19 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
This just makes no sense - the US government WAS responsible.
Right. So why do taxpayers pay for that? Should citizens pay for cops mistakes?
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:20 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Even if the higher end of the range is true, it's pennies compared to the stolen residential real estate.
When and where was residential real estate stolen? The government is not REQUIRED to loan you money. You can argue that there were predatory and unfair lending practices, but calling that theft of the land is a bit much.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:22 pm to The Pirate King
Plenty of non-minorities have been screwed over by predatory lending as well. Not that anyone GAF.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:22 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
The American government to Japanese-Americans in the 1980s.
Granted. Didn't know the government paid out for that.
quote:
You mean because they're taxpayers? Meh. They'll survive. We seem to despite the farm subsidies we pay.
I'm going to guess that where we differ is that I see a moral problem in making those who are not guilty pay for those who are, whereas you are seeing it as a collective responsibility regardless of individual culpability.
quote:
This just makes no sense - the US government WAS responsible.
Are you part of the government? Did you make these decisions? If not, how are you responsible?
Unless you suggest we provide reparations of this sort in lieu of other spending, but even then, the cost is still borne by those (99.999%) who have had no involvement at all with the wrongdoing. I have a problem with this.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:23 pm to HempHead
quote:
Granted. Didn't know the government paid out for that.
It was $20k to each actual camp survivor. Not the nonsense that would be proposed here.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:24 pm to the808bass
quote:Well, as I'm sure you are aware - the people ARE the government in the US. But even in countries where this isn't at least nominally true on paper, the logic of the sovereign still exists. It's the perpetual entity. If we applied the logic attempted in threads like these to everything, nothing would ever be done.
Right. So why do taxpayers pay for that?
quote:If the cops are government employees, yes.
Should citizens pay for cops mistakes?
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:25 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
the people ARE the government in the US
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:25 pm to HempHead
quote:
I don't really doubt that this happened, and was done intentionally. That said, what is to be done about it? The only real way to do justice is to start at 0, not at -60. Do right now. If we try to compensate for all historical wrongdoings, then we will never accomplish anything.
I agree.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:26 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
It's the perpetual entity. If we applied the logic attempted in threads like these to everything, nothing would ever be done.
And there’s no one and everyone responsible at the same time. No one responsible and everyone pays.
But someone hit the damn lottery. Sweet.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:27 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Should citizens pay for cops mistakes? If the cops are government employees, yes.
And this is one reason no real reform happens with regards to police misconduct. They bear no responsibility on the back end.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:29 pm to The Pirate King
quote:If the government is either lending money directly or insuring non-direct loans and then excludes an entire part of the population based purely on race, then I don't have to explain to you that that is unconstitutional.
When and where was residential real estate stolen? The government is not REQUIRED to loan you money.
It had the effect of: a)locking most American blacks out of the housing market in the mid-century...arguably the single most important appreciating asset which basically built the middle class in this country and b)causing a shortage of suitable rental housing for blacks who were denied purchasing, thus sky-rocketing the price for rentals and insuring slumlord-like conditions.
All aspects of the American "system" were in play here - private citizens on the ground, the FHA, the judges, the banks, etc.
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:29 pm to The Pirate King
And we (white folks and black folks) originally stole it from the Indians. So that being the case two groups of thieves fencing or squabbling amongst themselves over "hot merchandise" is really of no consequence.
Aside from that what about the poor whites who stole cheap land from the Indians in OK, TX, Kansas, Ark and other places who other whites stole from them during the dust bowl and the 20's and 30's and were forced to flee to Ca. That must be in the trillions of dollars in land. But like I said it was all hot to begin with.
Aside from that what about the poor whites who stole cheap land from the Indians in OK, TX, Kansas, Ark and other places who other whites stole from them during the dust bowl and the 20's and 30's and were forced to flee to Ca. That must be in the trillions of dollars in land. But like I said it was all hot to begin with.
This post was edited on 8/12/19 at 3:35 pm
Posted on 8/12/19 at 3:32 pm to the808bass
quote:In today's dollars, that would be $35-40K. If every American black got that, it would be around $1.5 Trillion. If just limited to blacks over the age of 50 (i.e. actually personally suffered through Jim Crow), it's still about $150 Billion.
It was $20k to each actual camp survivor. Not the nonsense that would be proposed here.
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