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Started By
Message
re: Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:11 am to WaWaWeeWa
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:11 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Now if you want to replace insurance companies with more of a fee for service model where patients have less reliance on insurance and more stake in the game then I think that’s a good idea.
Basically I think insurance should be for emergencies, catastrophes, surgeries, and hospitalizations. Everything else should be pay per visit and services.
Nailed it. I like the three layer system:
(1) Cash
(2) Tax-advantaged savings (HSAs)
(3) Insurance
Just as with car insurance, you can use the insurance for the cheap stuff, but the resulting increase in rates would serve as a disincentive for doing so.
I personally think the HSA is one of the truly brilliant financial products of our times. We need to collectively push the hell out of it as a society.
0
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:14 am to Yak
quote:
homogeneous and a fraction of our population.
that's not a reason to not try to emulate the successful things they do
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:19 am to lostinbr
quote:
To be fair, the only two Scandinavian countries in NATO are Norway (1.6%) and Denmark (1.2%). Norway is in the top half of NATO as far as percentage of GDP. Denmark is not. Sweden, Finland, and Iceland are not NATO members.
Finland and Iceland are not Scandinavian. Nordic is the term.
There is a paper out there that argues that Denmark basically undoes the benefits of its heavy investment in childhood development with weak labor incentives and that the educational mobility between generations in Denmark and the US is pretty much the same largely because of this.
This post was edited on 7/31/18 at 5:53 am
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:27 am to Jorts R Us
The narrowest classification would exclude Finland and, to a lesser extent, Iceland.
But Scandinavia in popular usage would typically include both of them.
But Scandinavia in popular usage would typically include both of them.
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:34 am to Revelator
I made a comment about this the other day
The nordic countries are capitalists with very robust property rights
They're just big government capitalists
The nordic countries are capitalists with very robust property rights
They're just big government capitalists
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:39 am to HTDawg
quote:
Ironic because conservatives like you want a welfare state, the only difference being a corporate welfare state where the rich and corporations play by different rules and don’t pay their taxes, not to mention buying our democracy.
I’ve never advocated for this, and judging by the rate corporations have been leaving the U.S., we tax them plenty.
quote:
I hope you remember your hatred of socialism when it comes time for your Social Security and Medicare,
I absolutely will remember that hatred because I don’t expect to see a dime back from social security, meaning people from your political leaning will have successfully stolen from me for my entire working career. Congratulations, thief.
Posted on 7/31/18 at 5:40 am to RedStickBR
quote:
But Scandinavia in popular usage would typically include both of them.
And that would be incorrect, at least if you are trying to be consistent with how they classify themselves locally. They’ll politely let you know it too.
This post was edited on 7/31/18 at 5:44 am
Posted on 7/31/18 at 6:18 am to Jorts R Us
quote:
And that would be incorrect, at least if you are trying to be consistent with how they classify themselves locally. They’ll politely let you know it too.
No, I’m not trying to be consistent with how they classify themselves locally. I’m trying to be consistent with how the rest of the world classifies them (hence “popular usage”). The Catalans and Basques in Spain would also like you to believe they aren’t Spanish and the rest of the world would politely disagree, as with here. The same could be said for certain groups of Italians, Brits and French.This post was edited on 7/31/18 at 6:20 am
Posted on 7/31/18 at 6:52 am to Revelator
I realized the other day that liberals just have no idea what they’re talking about. I was reading a school paper, and in the opinion section this guy talked about socialism and how it really isn’t that bad. He used examples of having a free market, and private business, and how business owners have complete control over their business and I started thinking that this guy is pretty much describing capitalism. I think liberals want to call it socialism just because conservatives are very pro capitalism. It’s dangerous in my opinion when a large group of people have no idea what they’re talking about and use a name like socialism to support their ideas. This is how the Soviet Union, todays Venezuela, and Cuba came into existence
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:04 am to sta4ever
I think Powerman put it best. While lower-income liberals may want true socialism, what the affluent ones want is really just big government capitalism. And I presume that’s because they have money to spend and money-grubbing politicians have bribes to accept.
And then of course they’d justify it all to the lower-income liberals as “socialism.”
And then of course they’d justify it all to the lower-income liberals as “socialism.”
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:09 am to Ebbandflow
quote:
I don't understand what you're not getting about this. I'm talking about eliminating insurance companies. We're just removing profit from the equation.
I have a little lesson for why you are factually ignorant about your solution to help.
Insurance companies are targeting a 4% profit margin. There is a risk that they lose money (possibly upwards to 8% losses). Obama bribed insurance companies with corporate welfare to go along with obamacare. That's right. The government subsidized losses (just like government backed mortgages... we all know how great that was. Nothing like leftist ideals feeding the people one line against corporate welfare so they can get your vote when they do exactly the opposite).
So, we understand that health insurance is a "pass through". They don't create the cost. They transfer the money from the consumer to the Healthcare providers. Their reality is about a 3% profit.
The government also has pass through providers. Your local tax assessor collects property taxes and distributes those taxes to the local schools. They purely transfer the money from the taxpayer to another government entity.
How much does the tax assessor's office charge to move money to another government agency? 2%. That is a 2% fee with zero risk of losing money. All they have to do is collect and pay.
No one does this for free. Medical billing is actually pretty complex. It could be argued that the 3% collection rate is a good deal versus the canabalism that the government does upon itself at the expense of our local schools.
We can debate other issues about insurance or healthcare taxes. But insurance company greed is laughable compared to what government agencies do to one another at zero risk.
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:12 am to Ebbandflow
quote:
I would prefer not to have privatization in things involving my life and insurance.
Why?
Do you realize that it’s better to get sick in the US than anywhere else in the world? We have the best survival rates for basically every major killer of mankind.
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:14 am to Powerman
quote:
The nordic countries are capitalists with very robust property rights
They're just big government capitalists
Correct, but that’s the part that gets left out by the Bernie Sanders of the world.
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:17 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
quote:
I would prefer not to have privatization in things involving my life and insurance.
Why?
Do you realize that it’s better to get sick in the US than anywhere else in the world? We have the best survival rates for basically every major killer of mankind.
You are correct. America has a monopoly on health technology/procedure breakthroughs.
He doesn't understand the quality of devices in our facilities. The quality of treatments available. Heck... the quality of diagnosis that we have access to in less than a week.
Canada scares the shite out of me. It seems like healthcare for the rich only. Crap care for everyone else.
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:30 am to Jorts R Us
quote:
Finland and Iceland are not Scandinavian. Nordic is the term.
Fair enough, but the OP used the term “Nordic”. If anything it was a typo on my part.
ETA: although the post I was replying said “Scandinavian”. Ah frick it, I punt
This post was edited on 7/31/18 at 7:31 am
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:43 am to Revelator
Man the right has really veered to the left. Of course Nordic countries are not socialist countries any more than Obamacare is.......calling any form of collectivism socialism is a mainstay of the right, not the left......
By the way The Nordic countries are particularly well suited to enjoy the benefits of a STRONG US Military.......without US Military Spending most people in that part of the world would be speaking Russian or German and living like middle class Poles or Czechs. But let’s pretend that they were a free market Valhalla suddenly turned benevolently socialist once the collective wealth of the nation became so great through Nordic prudence, smarts and free market one upsmanship that they could afford to take all of August off.......
Europe survives in its current manifestation because they do not have to worry about keeping Russia in check. You and I do that for them. We have since 1945. Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark ALL have tax rates....actual tax rates....that are about the same as ours when you consider what those taxes go toward....social security, health care, the medical portion of workers comp, general liability, auto and home owners insurance, college tuition.....the list goes on and on...
The enlightened right will hint that the reason Northern Europe is so successful is due to a lack of melanin in the citizens DNA.....normal folks on 5he right will just say it’s due to everybody being white. This is true. Another interesting tidbit is that there are far more people who aren’t white in Northern Europe, per capital, than there are Billionaires, per capital.....and it’s the lack of the latter that bolsters the living standards of all Nords. The only nation in the region to make the top 25 is Norway and its way behind Mexico......high taxation, high collective spending and a social safety net that would make the most Rosie eyed dreamer of all things leftist in the US blush with envy are a huge part of the regions success....bigger by many factors though is the fact the US Taxpayers keep the world reasonably safe and secure. But let’s pretend it’s the free market principals of Nordic nations......
By the way The Nordic countries are particularly well suited to enjoy the benefits of a STRONG US Military.......without US Military Spending most people in that part of the world would be speaking Russian or German and living like middle class Poles or Czechs. But let’s pretend that they were a free market Valhalla suddenly turned benevolently socialist once the collective wealth of the nation became so great through Nordic prudence, smarts and free market one upsmanship that they could afford to take all of August off.......
Europe survives in its current manifestation because they do not have to worry about keeping Russia in check. You and I do that for them. We have since 1945. Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark ALL have tax rates....actual tax rates....that are about the same as ours when you consider what those taxes go toward....social security, health care, the medical portion of workers comp, general liability, auto and home owners insurance, college tuition.....the list goes on and on...
The enlightened right will hint that the reason Northern Europe is so successful is due to a lack of melanin in the citizens DNA.....normal folks on 5he right will just say it’s due to everybody being white. This is true. Another interesting tidbit is that there are far more people who aren’t white in Northern Europe, per capital, than there are Billionaires, per capital.....and it’s the lack of the latter that bolsters the living standards of all Nords. The only nation in the region to make the top 25 is Norway and its way behind Mexico......high taxation, high collective spending and a social safety net that would make the most Rosie eyed dreamer of all things leftist in the US blush with envy are a huge part of the regions success....bigger by many factors though is the fact the US Taxpayers keep the world reasonably safe and secure. But let’s pretend it’s the free market principals of Nordic nations......
Posted on 7/31/18 at 7:45 am to RedStickBR
quote:
No, I’m not trying to be consistent with how they classify themselves locally. I’m trying to be consistent with how the
By the rest of the world, you mean North America? Moreover, if you actually look at the etymology, you’d still be wrong. But hey, you do you.
Posted on 7/31/18 at 9:25 am to Revelator
quote:
Scandinavian economist once said to Milton Friedman, ‘In Scandinavia, we have no poverty’. Milton Friedman replied, ‘That’s interesting, because in America, among Scandinavians, we have no poverty, either’ (quoted by Kotkin, 2009).
All it boils down to really. When you have a culture of work ethic, average IQ is relatively high, and you value education you will very little poverty
Posted on 7/31/18 at 9:27 am to Yak
quote:
Even if they were, most of those Scandinavian countries are homogeneous and a fraction of our population.
It won't work here
Yea I think Finlands population is around 6 million people
Posted on 7/31/18 at 9:28 am to Revelator
"They all point to Scandanavia. but everybody should know the history of Scandanavia. Its pretty simple. Certainly of Sweden. Its very straightforward.
1870s or approximately 1870s 'til 1960 Sweden had the freest economy in the entire, probably in the world or close to it. Its was probably freer than the United States. It had rule of law, protection of property rights and basically laissez-faire. It was as close as we come to laissez-faire. And you know what? They became the richest country in all of Europe. On a per capita, on a GDP basis Sweden was the richest country in all of Europe.
They had, I think it was 4 of the 10 largest companies in Europe were based in Sweden. And in 1960 they decided to adopt socialism. And they took all their wealth, or a lot of it, and they start redistributing it. And by 1979, what was the largest industry in Sweden? The largest money maker in Sweden in 1979?
ABBA.
Anyone remember ABBA? The rock group. ABBA.
You know what #2 was? Björn Borg.
The tennis player.
Who then got up and left and to, I dont know, Luxembourg or something because he didnt want to pay the taxes.
Industry had gone from Sweden. Sweden no longer had the largest companies in Europe. They had collapsed.
By 1994 Sweden was where Greece was a few years ago, they were bankrupt. They were finished. And since 1994 Sweden has been liberalizing their economy, has been freeing it up, has been reducing regulations and has been cutting down on redistribution of wealth, it still redistributes a lot, its still regulated but relatively speaking it aint socialist any more than America's socialist.
It spends more on redistribution than United States does. It regulates less than the United States does. So its got a different balance. Most economies today are these mixed economies.
But when Sweden, homogeneous Sweden with all the smarts of Swedes and all the collective love they have for each other, supposedly. (even they) Couldnt make socialism work in Sweden. They went bankrupt.
ITS NEVER WORKED. ANYWHERE.
anywhere."
-Yaron Brook.
The above snippet starts at the 16:00 mark but the whole thing is great.
Why college students are so attracted to Socialism
1870s or approximately 1870s 'til 1960 Sweden had the freest economy in the entire, probably in the world or close to it. Its was probably freer than the United States. It had rule of law, protection of property rights and basically laissez-faire. It was as close as we come to laissez-faire. And you know what? They became the richest country in all of Europe. On a per capita, on a GDP basis Sweden was the richest country in all of Europe.
They had, I think it was 4 of the 10 largest companies in Europe were based in Sweden. And in 1960 they decided to adopt socialism. And they took all their wealth, or a lot of it, and they start redistributing it. And by 1979, what was the largest industry in Sweden? The largest money maker in Sweden in 1979?
ABBA.
Anyone remember ABBA? The rock group. ABBA.
You know what #2 was? Björn Borg.
The tennis player.
Who then got up and left and to, I dont know, Luxembourg or something because he didnt want to pay the taxes.
Industry had gone from Sweden. Sweden no longer had the largest companies in Europe. They had collapsed.
By 1994 Sweden was where Greece was a few years ago, they were bankrupt. They were finished. And since 1994 Sweden has been liberalizing their economy, has been freeing it up, has been reducing regulations and has been cutting down on redistribution of wealth, it still redistributes a lot, its still regulated but relatively speaking it aint socialist any more than America's socialist.
It spends more on redistribution than United States does. It regulates less than the United States does. So its got a different balance. Most economies today are these mixed economies.
But when Sweden, homogeneous Sweden with all the smarts of Swedes and all the collective love they have for each other, supposedly. (even they) Couldnt make socialism work in Sweden. They went bankrupt.
ITS NEVER WORKED. ANYWHERE.
anywhere."
-Yaron Brook.
The above snippet starts at the 16:00 mark but the whole thing is great.
Why college students are so attracted to Socialism
This post was edited on 7/31/18 at 9:30 am
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