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re: Shouldn’t “preemptive’ pardons be unconstitutional?

Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:22 am to
Posted by Willie Stroker
Member since Sep 2008
15587 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:22 am to
quote:

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment, I think it's probably (and unfortunately) accurate as this seems to be legal ground never covered

If my recollection of high school history is accurate, we had a President named Ford who preemptively pardoned a President named Nixon. To my knowledge no legal scholar ever seriously considered it worth filing a legal challenge against it.

Am I overlooking any key distinctions between that and this?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465279 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:23 am to
quote:

Yup every single time. His TDS is unreal


A MAGA-type melting doesn't mean me pointing out the flaws in his comments are partisan.

Also, by almost default, it's always going to be a MAGA-type on here

Do you suffer from TDS when you mock the same melting by the same people when you call them "conservatives"?
This post was edited on 1/20/25 at 8:24 am
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
77884 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:30 am to
How broad are these pardons? With the way some lawyers can weasel facets of a matter is it possible some of these folks could be prosecuted on actions tangential to the issues covered by the pardons?

All of these people can now be forced to testify under oath with no 5th amendment protections, correct?
Posted by Free888
Member since Oct 2019
2853 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:31 am to
quote:

Am I overlooking any key distinctions between that and this?


As I mentioned in my previous post, Nixon’s charges were “obvious”, whereas Hunter’s aren’t as clear. It’s no guarantee that the pardon would be struck down, but it’s at least a reasonable basis for a challenge.
This post was edited on 1/20/25 at 8:32 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465279 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:31 am to
quote:

All of these people can now be forced to testify under oath with no 5th amendment protections, correct?

That depends. Are any of the potential crimes potentially state crimes? If so, they can still plead the 5th.

quote:

How broad are these pardons?

I haven't read them, but I'm assuming absolute
Posted by Vacherie Saint
Member since Aug 2015
45998 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:32 am to
Preempting charges, not crimes you miserable twat
Posted by Stealth Matrix
29°59'55.98"N 90°05'21.85"W
Member since Aug 2019
10829 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:32 am to
quote:

At least Biden directly pointed the finger at those who he knows committed crimes.

Yup.

Turn them over to The Hague.
Posted by Jimmy Russel
Member since Nov 2021
744 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:33 am to
Would it be possible to challenge the pardons based on Biden’s mental state? There’s plenty of evidence to challenge whether he knew what he was signing.
This post was edited on 1/20/25 at 8:34 am
Posted by Free888
Member since Oct 2019
2853 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:34 am to
quote:

I haven't read them, but I'm assuming absolute


Might be worthwhile bringing the Jan 6 committee in and asking them if any were party to sexual assault or harassment claims that may have been paid off.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465279 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:35 am to
quote:

Preempting charges, not crimes you miserable twat

An irrelevant distinction I covered in my original post.

Reading is hard, I know.
Posted by Rebel
Graceland
Member since Jan 2005
141303 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:35 am to
quote:

Would it be possible to challenge the pardons based on Biden’s mental state?


He was deemed unfit to stand trial. He should also be unfit to dismiss a trial.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
465279 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:36 am to
quote:

He was deemed unfit to stand trial. He should also be unfit to dismiss a trial.

We have a specified process for that in the Constitution. Until that process is engaged, there isn't really a legal argument for this.
Posted by 1putt
Member since Sep 2024
972 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:38 am to
Ford was not a co-conspirator in Nixon’s crimes.

Biden and the entire Democrat party are co-conspirators with these people he just pardoned in their crimes. This is apples and oranges and I do not think for one second the constitution protects this type of behavior.
This post was edited on 1/20/25 at 8:38 am
Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
28006 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:40 am to
At the least, the potentially criminal action should be named. Blanket pardons bother me more than preemptive pardons.
This post was edited on 1/20/25 at 8:41 am
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
57798 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:40 am to
quote:

If my recollection of high school history is accurate, we had a President named Ford who preemptively pardoned a President named Nixon. To my knowledge no legal scholar ever seriously considered it worth filing a legal challenge against it.

Am I overlooking any key distinctions between that and this?


Nixon was under active investigation (his Impeachment hearing was still going on when he resigned and when Ford pardoned him).

Some of the pardons Joe approved of aren't for any specific crime nor investigation, but rather to stop any potential investigation from ever starting in the first place. LINK

quote:

I believe in the rule of law, and I am optimistic that the strength of our legal institutions will ultimately prevail over politics. But these are exceptional circumstances, and I cannot in good conscience do nothing. Baseless and politically motivated investigations wreak havoc on the lives, safety, and financial security of targeted individuals and their families. Even when individuals have done nothing wrong—and in fact have done the right thing—and will ultimately be exonerated, the mere fact of being investigated or prosecuted can irreparably damage reputations and finances.

That is why I am exercising my authority under the Constitution to pardon General Mark A. Milley, Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the Members of Congress and staff who served on the Select Committee, and the U.S. Capitol and D.C. Metropolitan police officers who testified before the Select Committee. The issuance of these pardons should not be mistaken as an acknowledgment that any individual engaged in any wrongdoing, nor should acceptance be misconstrued as an admission of guilt for any offense.


That's a dangerous expanse of the pardon power. If this expanse is allowed, the use of it will likely increase over time. Imagine it becoming commonplace for an outgoing President to pardon all members of their staff for anything done while being on the staff, to the point where no staff member could ever be investigated for anything. That's pretty much where this is headed.
Posted by greygoose
Member since Aug 2013
14101 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:41 am to
quote:

In four years, if Trump performs any pardons at all, he will be the first to create a thread about it.
He's issuing pardons today, is my guess. The J6 political prisoners are about to be freed, and rightfully so!!
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
57798 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:43 am to
quote:

But the (purported/alleged) crime has happened.


But it's even more than that, Biden's pardon even reads that it wasn't issued because a crime was possibly committed (the actual pardon reads to the contrary, saying the pardon shouldn't be used to assume their guilt in any crime), but that it was issues to keep any investigation of any of these people (whether as named individuals or being within a named group) from ever happening in the first place.
Posted by Stealth Matrix
29°59'55.98"N 90°05'21.85"W
Member since Aug 2019
10829 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:43 am to
quote:

He offers discount divorces i shite you not.

Is it because he spends more time regurgitating bullshite on here than he does doing his actual job?
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
77884 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:44 am to
quote:


I haven't read them, but I'm assuming absolute
That means any federal crime they may have committed even unrelated to, say, J6 for those committee members or COVID for Fauci? If Liz Cheney had committed some federal crime completely unrelated to her opposition actions vs Trump, she's pardoned?
Posted by greygoose
Member since Aug 2013
14101 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 8:46 am to
quote:

He was deemed unfit to stand trial. He should also be unfit to dismiss a trial.
THIS!!!
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