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Reason article on luxury goods and class: don't mind the gap

Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:35 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
420887 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:35 am
this is an argument i've made many, MANY times on here

quote:

But I'm an economist. And let's face it: In practical terms, the difference between a $200,000 Tesla and my last car, a beat-up minivan worth $2,000 at trade-in, is not all that large. They're both safe forms of transportation that get you from point A to point B and, given legal limits and the reality of suburban traffic, most of the time they're driven at roughly the same speeds.

In that sense, measures of income inequality overstate the differences within a developed country like the United States. The products available to the masses are, in many cases, nearly as good as those available only to the elite. Your garbageman's old Timex and your podiatrist's brand new Rolex serve almost precisely the same function.

It wasn't always so. A century ago, a hungry rich person had access to significantly more food and more choices than a poor one. Yet even bluebloods would have been able to get their hands on less variety and quality than one now finds at an average Midwestern all-you-can-eat buffet. When Herbert Hoover promised "a chicken in every pot" in the election of 1928, it was the sort of pledge that no one expected a politician to actually keep. Today, each American consumes an average of 27 chickens a year, and obesity is a bigger problem than hunger.

The chasm between the very rich and the median citizen yawns wider the further back you look. Three centuries ago, an aristocrat riding in a cushioned carriage would have looked down at a peasant trudging barefoot through the muck—a much more substantial difference than the Honda-Tesla gap today.


what's sad is that i've spent so much time on random FB groups i follow arguing with 19 year old communists lately, that i know the exact responses. "oh this is just propaganda telling the proles to be happy with their gruel and shut up" or something along those lines.

quote:

But appearances can be deceiving. As the Brookings economist Gary Burtless has pointed out, if you account for transfers such as government housing assistance and employer-provided health insurance, "Americans in the bottom one-fifth of the distribution saw their real net incomes climb by almost 50 percent" since the late 1970s, while "those in the middle fifth of the distribution saw their incomes grow 36 percent." It's worth remembering that anytime someone says the gap between rich and poor is increasing, what he usually means is that rich people are getting richer faster than poor people are getting richer—not that any group is becoming worse off overall.


that is just absolutely unacceptable for those people. they believe all groups, regardless of ability or effort, should advance equally. many have even done the whole "all labor is slavery" argument. that is awesome, especially when i explain that not all income has to be via employment. they literally are so narrow-minded in their view of economics and income that they can't even conceive starting their own business. that's how warped they are

*ETA: here is a sentence that summarizes this all

quote:

When what was once luxurious starts to be viewed as necessary, or at least normal, it's hard to know who to be jealous of or why.
This post was edited on 6/18/17 at 8:38 am
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98298 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:44 am to
But, envy and jealousy are the foundations of progressivism (and the modern Democrat party).
Posted by EZE Tiger Fan
Member since Jul 2004
50187 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:44 am to
You need to put that chart on this thread of the luxuries the poor in America receive as opposed to the rest of the world, like TVs, an fridge, oven, stove, microwave, rims, etc...
Posted by shinerfan
Duckworld(Earth-616)
Member since Sep 2009
22169 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:47 am to
quote:

Today, each American consumes an average of 27 chickens a year



Still more proof that my mama was right. I am far above average.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
420887 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:47 am to


that's 10 years old. likely even better than what's on that chart
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98298 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:52 am to
The so-called "poor" of this country have zero fricking clue what REAL poverty is.
Posted by uway
Member since Sep 2004
33109 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:53 am to
The nature of things is that people have different abilities. Many (most?) simply people aren't capable of owning a business or being highly successful and would be happier as a relative low wage earner with a meager but secure financial existence.
Modernity has done many things to ruin people's inner peace, two of which are:
1. Encouraged the breakup of families, which has eroded financial security (and by financial security I mean just a general belief that you will be able to provide food clothing and shelter for you and yours if you work hard).
2. Deeply ingrained the belief in egalitarianism. People are taught that everyone is equal but then see that they don't measure up in terms of success, so they feel inner lack of worth AND they look for someone or something to blame (institutional racism, the patriarchy, etc).

So your Reason.com article, like most libertarian articles, is correct but irrelevant. People naturally want what other people have and thanks to modern reality, they see clearly that they have less than others, they are sold an unrealistic vision of the good life, they are told that the system is stacked against them, and we get mimetic conflict.
Posted by EZE Tiger Fan
Member since Jul 2004
50187 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:54 am to
quote:

that's 10 years old. likely even better than what's on that chart


Something something Obama and trillions in wealth transfer via "taxes" like Obamacare, something something

Yup. I bet it is "better", depending on what side you are on.
Posted by RCDfan1950
United States
Member since Feb 2007
34831 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:55 am to
quote:

jealous


There is your bottom line. Envy. An essential and basic, damning emotion that has been recognized as far back as the Biblical "Cain slew Able" story.

People shoot people for their shoes, not because of the utility of the shoe, but because of the perceived personal value/status of the person who wears them. It is all about Ego, and it is at the core makeup of the Human Psyche. And it won't go away if or until that core biological condition is either addressed (genetically or AI engineered) or that Humanity makes a profound effort to shun it's pernicious effect on Human Society.

Big task. Highly problematic.
Posted by PrimeTime Money
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
27295 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:57 am to
I've thought about this same exact thing before.

Rhe rich and the not so wealthy both have the same smart phones. Similar TVs, the same electronics like Xbox, blu ray player, same internet, computer, etc. Both have cars, a house, maybe a pool, etc.

A rich person can afford all top of the line items, but the overall the things they have aren't too much different.

Now one area where the rich have a big advantage is the ability to travel. Vacations are expensive and they can go anywhere they want. That's not something that can be replicated.

But overall, the lifestyle of a rich person and a middle class person isn't all that different.
This post was edited on 6/18/17 at 8:59 am
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54752 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 8:58 am to
That's all very true, unfortunately, humans don't work that way. Never have and maybe never will.
Posted by FutureRATeammember
Member since Jan 2015
3768 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:05 am to
The democrats are living off this issue. They are encouraging anger by disguising class as race.
Posted by Centinel
Idaho
Member since Sep 2016
43317 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:06 am to
This is exactly why any discussion of "income inequality" or "wealth gap" in the US is utter horseshite and nothing but a base appeal to envy and emotions. But proggies gonna proggy.

Now if you want to have that discussion between let's say a US citizen versus someone living on Bangladesh or Ethiopia, you might have an argument.
Posted by SirWinston
PNW
Member since Jul 2014
81151 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:06 am to
Interesting point, mate
Posted by Jyrdis
TD Premium Member Level III
Member since Aug 2015
12783 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:07 am to
quote:

But, envy and jealousy


Greed is good as it drives people to pursue their own self interests and in turn promote society's overall well-being. It's this through the free market that has catapulted America's rise in economic growth and other countries around the world.

However, it's the above quote that UD points out that precisely the issue. People are too jealous, and another poster pointed out that modern reality further exacerbates the issue. People just can't be proud of what they have earned anymore, now it's "I want what you've earned as well".
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112363 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:08 am to
quote:

they literally are so narrow-minded in their view of economics and income


In my IRL discussions with leftists they display what I call 'the monopoly game' theory of rich/poor gap.
The Parker Bros game has a finite amount of money in the box. So if I've got most of it then you have little of it.

Similarly, they think that in the real world when rich people increase their wealth it leaves less money for poor people. Because only so much money can exist at one time.
Posted by FightinTigersDammit
Louisiana North
Member since Mar 2006
34542 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:13 am to
quote:

People just can't be proud of what they have earned anymore, now it's "I want what you've earned as well".


Exactly. I have no problem with someone wanting the best his money can buy. It's when he wants the best MY money can buy that I have a problem.
Posted by TigerNutwhack
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2004
4133 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:35 am to
I listened to a podcast recently with Jordan Peterson and some sociology professor, and they were discussing the fact that relative poverty and not absolute poverty play a very big part in crime and other dysfunctional behaviors associated with poverty. I can't remember all of the details, but the gist was that when people, especially young men, perceive that they can't move up their "dominance hierarchy", that will manifest itself in behaviors that work to undermine that hierarchy. And these behaviors are less pronounced in smaller communities of similar status. They used Chicago ghetto vs Appalachia as examples of high and low relative poverty. Of course, there are other factors in that, but relative poverty was a major contributor.


So in a sense, it doesn't matter how much better off the poor are today than 100 years ago, there will always be tension two or more groups live close together but have a high difference in income or status. The left's philosophy of resentment and jealousy (basically marxism) just feeds this tension until it blows up, which of course is their goal whether they know that or not.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:45 am to
I've been saying this for years

Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48285 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 9:48 am to
Comparative poverty versus objective poverty.

The latter doesn't really exist in the US
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