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re: Pope Francis permits Priests to bless same sex couples in major Vatican doctrine change

Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:25 pm to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:25 pm to
quote:

With sincere respect..you state “some of them even believed things that were declared heretical afterwards.” True . What were those things ?
For one example, Origen believed in the pre-existence of the soul. Another loose example would be Tertullian's abandonment of orthodox Christianity in favor of Montanism, which was a movement rejected by the church in the 2nd century. Point being, there were men early on who have been instrumental in various ways that have believed things that were condemned and rejected by the broader church.

quote:

Private interpretation of scripture? Answer yes. It’s the private interpretation of scripture that is the source of the heresies.
You actually defeat your own belief systems with your own words.
Private interpretation of Scripture was praised in the account of the Bereans in Acts 17, but we know that private interpretation must be led by the Spirit of God through the use of Scipture as the interpretative grid or framework. We can't interpret Scripture to mean anything we want, because God had actual meanings to convey to us in His word. God gave teachers (elders/pastors) to help the people with that task of interpretation.

quote:

Then you finish with vague traditions.
By "vague traditions", I mean that Rome teaches there is a nebulous number of traditions that were passed down orally and yet we don't know when and where and by whom specifically all traditions were given and when they were documented to be as such. Instead, a dogma can be declared 1500-2000 years after Christ where it isn't obvious or clear at all that such tradition was even known or heard of by the early church, but it is assumed by the later decree. The Scriptures are final. We can read the Bible today and have confidence that it is substantively the same Bible from 500 years ago, from 1000 years ago, and nearly 2000 years ago. We have to trust Rome in the traditions that she claims must be believed as being passed down from the Apostles.


quote:

The priesthood is not a vague tradition. Every single Christian faith had the priesthood for the first 1500 years.
Except that the Apostles were forming churches in various areas and electing elders for the governance and teaching, not priests. Deviating from Scripture early on does not justify the deviation.

quote:

The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is not a vague tradition. Every single church believed it.
That's quite the bold statement and not true. That's more anachronism coming into play. Whenever someone says "this is Christ's body" and "this is Christ's blood", you assume they meant His literal, physical body and blood in the same way that Rome teaches today. My Protestant church does not believe the Scriptures teach the real presence, and yet every time we have Communion, the pastor says "this is my body" and "this is my blood" (quoting Jesus, obviously), because just as the bread and the wine are really there physically, ministering to our physical senses, so we know that Christ's sacrifice was real and physical, and the spiritual benefits of grace that the Lord gives in the sacrament are real and effectual.

quote:

Your belief system is the novelty not the Catholic faith.
My belief system is based on Scripture, which is the very word of God. I would rather believe what is true and "novel" than what is generally accepted and false.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:29 pm to
quote:

Holy crap! You do not believe in the resurrection of the body?
Jesus was raised body and spirit.
We will all have a bodily resurrection according to every Christian faith, Protestant included
How did you get from A to B here? Of course I believe in the resurrection of the body after Christ's return. I wasn't addressing the resurrection at all. I was explaining that the verse that was mentioned was talking about dead people, not the living (physically). At the time Jesus said what He said in that passage, Abraham's bones were still in the ground. Isaac's body had decomposed. Jacob's body saw corruption. They were all physically dead. I was responding to the poor interpretation of Matt. 22 by providing contextual clarity.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:35 pm to
quote:

We haven’t but Mary has.
She was assumed into heaven body and soul.
The assumption of Mary.
I know you don’t believe or accept this. See how your initial error “sola script” has lead you into other errors
I find it so curious how Catholics have so lifted up sacred tradition that they actually find a way to denigrate belief in the Bible as the word of God by application. This is what happens when you claim more than one equal standard: in practice, one standard takes over and rules the other. You see this with Catholicism in that the Church has essentially overtaken God, Himself, as authority, because Rome is the only one who can define scripture and interpret scripture, and she is the only one who can define sacred tradition and interpret sacred tradition. This puts the Church as the highest authority even over the Bible, and there is no appeal.

If my church teaches something out of accord with the Bible, there exists a mechanism for reform in that the Scriptures are brought to bear against the one(s) doing the false teaching. There is no mechanism if Rome becomes corrupted, because you cannot say that she is wrong. The RCC is the final say, not God.
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1758 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:41 pm to
quote:

My belief system is based on Scripture, which is the very word of God. I would rather believe what is true and "novel" than what is generally accepted and false.

Finally ! We can end this discussion.
Thank you for your honesty .
It reveals that you are sincere in your belief which I respect greatly.
Peace brother
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:41 pm to
quote:

You’re still avoiding my question.


I’m seriously not trying to be obtuse, but I don’t exactly know what passage or passages you are referencing and what that has to do with Mormons???
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:43 pm to
quote:

You’re still avoiding my question.
If me and you have a dispute over an interp of scripture. Do we accept your understanding Or do we do what scripture says and let the church decide?
The Reformed (biblical) view of Scripture interpretation is what is commonly called the analogy of faith, which is that we are to interpret Scripture by Scripture. If we assume that God is the author of His own word, and God cannot lie, then the Bible will not contradict itself and we can use the Bible to understand the Bible, using more clear passages to interpret less clear passages, while all that is necessary to believe for salvation is plainly taught so that anyone can find salvation by reading it by themselves.

The church helps guide understanding but we have to remember that the church is comprised by sinful, fallible human beings, and only God's word alone is infallible and inerrant. As soon as you start ascribe attributes of Scripture to the church, you start going down the wrong path and you will end up where Rome has ended up, into apostasy.

The Church is still good and necessary because Christ founded her and continues to build her to this day, but the Church is not located exclusively in Rome.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 12:47 pm to
quote:

Finally ! We can end this discussion.
Thank you for your honesty .
It reveals that you are sincere in your belief which I respect greatly.
Peace brother
I hope you didn't take my statement as a concession that what I believe is new, because I was not conceding such a thing and what I believe is not new. When I say "Scriptural", I mean that it was taught by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles to the recipients of the Scriptures. Therefore, when I say my system of beliefs are Scriptural, then that means I believe they are original to Christianity, not "new". That's precisely why I put "novel" in quotations, because I would rather be characterized by Catholics as believing something "novel" (which my beliefs aren't) than believe what they believe and adhere to false teachings.
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 12:48 pm
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1758 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 1:34 pm to
quote:

hope you didn't take my statement as a concession that what I believe is new, because I was not conceding such a thing and what I believe is not new.


Ok
Let’s review. You have admitted that Jesus read from the Septuagint which is the OT that Catholic Church uses which is a concession that the masoritic text that Protestants use in not the correct one.
You then admitted that your beliefs are novel and then recanted.
If you were Joan of arc we would burn you at the stake.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 1:40 pm to
quote:

If you were Joan of arc we would burn you at the stake.


Can you see the irony here?
The RCC is so authoritative that it would seek to kill anyone who deviates from its doctrine if it could. And we know it would, because it has.
Organizations that have the truth don’t need to force it on people by the point of the sword.
Or In the RCC’s case, by fire
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 1:45 pm
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1758 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 1:44 pm to
quote:

Can you see the irony here? The RCC is so authoritative that it would seek to kill anyone who deviates from its doctrine if it could. And we know it would, because it has.


lol the church canonized her. The Catholic bishop that condemned her is probably burning in hell.
Again. You totally do not understand anything about which you speak. We recognize that individuals even bishops and popes are sinners and regularly sin gravely.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 1:47 pm to
quote:

lol the church canonized her. The Catholic bishop that condemned her is probably burning in hell.


I’m not talking about Joan of Arc. I’m saying it’s ironic that a church who claims to have all truth, would feel the need to force its beliefs on others under the pains of death

quote:

Again. You totally do not understand anything about which you speak.


I see you are no fan of humility
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 1:48 pm
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1758 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 1:52 pm to
quote:

’m not talking about Joan of Arc. I’m saying it’s ironic that a church who claims to have all truth, would feel the need to force its beliefs on others under the pains of death


It doesn’t
So I guess all those witches who the Protestant churches burnt at the stake invalidates their faith as well
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 1:58 pm to
quote:

So I guess all those witches who the Protestant churches burnt at the stake invalidates their faith as well



While this too was an overzealous act caused by an overreaction to superstition, it’s not comparable to martyring people for simply not wanting to be a part of a church.
They weren’t killing people because they wanted to force them to become Protestants, they did it because they suspected them of practicing witchcraft.
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 2:08 pm
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1758 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 2:06 pm to
Foomanchoo is more knowledgeable , more honest, and is more able to stick to the subject than you.
Every time you lose you change the subject.
I will not respond to you again. You are more interested in winning an argument that you are at pursuing the truth .
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 2:11 pm to
quote:

Foomanchoo is more knowledgeable


He is. I won’t dispute this. I’m a simple blue-collar worker who was saved by Grace and tries his best to practice what the Bible says concerning doctrine. I never set out to be dishonest of to duck questions. I never pretended to have all the answers. Ironically, that’s what your side does. And if you no longer want to chat, that’s also fine
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 2:12 pm
Posted by bayoubengals88
LA
Member since Sep 2007
24741 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 2:19 pm to
You fellas ever heard of a cease fire?
It’s nearly Christmas for God’s sake!

I love my Catholics, my Orthodox, and most of my fellow Prots
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 2:20 pm
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 2:36 pm to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/22/23 at 3:04 pm to
quote:

Ok
Let’s review.
I'm not sure what follows is an actual review as much as a twisting of words, but I'll respond anyway.

quote:

You have admitted that Jesus read from the Septuagint which is the OT that Catholic Church uses which is a concession that the masoritic text that Protestants use in not the correct one.
I conceded no such thing (about the incorrectness of the Masoretic text). The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Hebrew.

I also stated that the argument about the Septuagint is completely null and void because there are writings included in the Septuagint that are not included in the Catholic canon. Perhaps you should read my post about that.

quote:

You then admitted that your beliefs are novel and then recanted.
I didn't say that my beliefs were novel. I explained that I was willing to accept such a FALSE criticism from Catholics and remain in the truth of God's word than be enslaved to a lie believed by many. I didn't say that what I believe is novel, but is instead original because it comes from the Scriptures, themselves.

quote:

If you were Joan of arc we would burn you at the stake.
I have no doubt about it. Catholicism has a long history of burning people at the stake for believing the truth.

I hope the Lord delivers you from Catholicism, because salvation is through Christ alone by faith in His perfect works on our behalf, and to add to that is to take away from it, making His death not applicable to anyone who seeks to add their own works to what He has done.
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 3:07 pm
Posted by Squirrelmeister
Member since Nov 2021
3694 posts
Posted on 12/23/23 at 10:05 am to
quote:

superstition



quote:

practicing witchcraft


Witchcraft is very real according to your Bible.

quote:

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


quote:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.


Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
55320 posts
Posted on 12/23/23 at 10:51 am to
The Pope cannot unilaterally change RCC doctrine/theology.

The published Catechism rules. Folks who wish to thoughtfully learn what the RCC believes should look it up in the Catechism.


LINK

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