Guntoter1

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why do we have to care about either?

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Because Jews and Muslims are not equal.
You moron !!!
You young punks who did not live through the 60s and 70s are ignorant useful idiots.
1. If Israel takes over our country we will be ruled by a law abiding nation that allows people to live and let live.
2. If Islam takes over you will be eliminated.
3. You are like a liberal white woman social justice warrior and you are too stupid to know it.

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On earth, we may not know, at least not until reform happens. There is no infallible ruling authority on earth; the Scriptures are the only infallible rule and authority, and all error will be revealed by God in Heaven

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So you admit you may be in error.
You may not think you are but you admit “we may not know” “there is no infallible ruling authority on earth.”
Interesting….
I believe Christ left us a church that is his authority. It is his steward while he is absent. He gave that power to men.
Men who are sinners.
I am impressed by your logic and knowledge. You have studied much and I believe you are sincere in your belief.
You are the most rational and logical person I have ever debated.
I sympathize with your understanding of the early church even though I put more weight on the early church fathers than you must. I believe that the early church was very Catholic but understandably simple at the time.
Good night

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The Scriptures.

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But you said that the church interprets the scriptures. They are the final authority over the preachers. The elders who are the governing structure of the church make sure that the preachers don’t teach error that contradicts the Bible.
The elders make sure that the Bible is followed.

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Failed? No. It was a practical evolution that deviated from what God ordained but the Church was still the Church, even in spite of the incorrect governmental structure.

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Let me review what we have discussed.

We both agree that the church has a Governing structure and that it has the authority to interpret scripture.

Which means that if the early true Presbyterian style church that existed for the first hundred years changed the Governmental structure of the church, it had the authority to do so.
Correct?

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Yes. It started off well and then went down hill rather quickly. From a plurality and equality of elders to a primacy of a bishop in a congregation to a primacy of a bishop in a region to a primacy of the bishop of Rome. Took several hundred years, but it happened

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I agree the church out grew the number of apostles and therefor some churches had to appoint presbyters.
But this would mean that the church Christ established failed correct?
I mean you must think the church failed and went astray because it adopted a false form of Gov. correct?

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It does follow that structure. Those members are part of the visible church but not the visible church.

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Please explain why your Presbyterian form of church Gov. is correct but the Catholic form of church Gov is wrong.

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Not unless either of us are elders in church, and only as a plurality of elders, not alone or individually.

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So you consider your elders as apostles
Got it.
But you skipped over my earlier question.
Christ promised that the gates would not prevail over the church and yet you are not a member of that church.
Please explain how the CC lost the faith but the gates of hell did not prevale.

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He actually gave the keys to all the Apostles. Mathew 18 has Jesus telling all the Apostles that they, too, have the power to bind and loose. The Apostles appointed Elders in the churches to carry on the teaching and ruling authority. And no, the Church is the body of Christ, not the organizational structure based in Rome. I believe the visible Church is much bigger than that, and the visible Church will continue until Christ returns; Hell will not prevail against her.

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Please cite Mathew 18 and post it here so I can verify your statement.

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nd Paul had to correct Peter. We don't have the Apostles. The Apostles gave the keys to the elders, who were appointed in every congregation. The elders are Christ's undershepherds, which is why I mentioned presbyterian government.

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Correct!
Even the apostles were prone to error.
Only the church as a whole has infallible teaching authority.
So all we need to do now is decide which is the correct church.

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I believe that the Bible teaches Presbyterianism in terms of church government (see Acts 15). In Presbyterianism, the plurality of elders of a local congregation provide immediate regulation of the preaching, with the regional presbytery providing additional regulation in cases of complaint. The congregation can complain to the elders of the congregation if there is false teaching occurring. ETA: the regulation at all levels is to be based on the confessional understanding of the scriptures.

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So in short… the church regulates the preacher. I agree.