- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Pope Francis permits Priests to bless same sex couples in major Vatican doctrine change
Posted on 12/20/23 at 12:57 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 12/20/23 at 12:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
s). So as I said, any expression of the true church that adheres to the creeds and solas is part of the one, true church of Jesus Christ,
This is true except for one thing.
You left out apostolic.
What most people fail to realize Catholics included is that the CC IS post messianic Judaism. “ I came to fulfill the law not to abolish it.”
There is not enough space to type All of the parallels. Priesthood, sacrifice of the lamb. Mary as the new ark, the continuation of true worship, recite the psalms at every mass. A head priest(pope), a governing body, fasting, etc etc..
The return of Christ will not occur until the full number of Jews enter the church.
2
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:10 pm to RebelExpress38
quote:
We all agree she is blessed and highly favored. We just don’t pray to her because God is the only one we need to pray to. When Jesus said he was leaving behind a Helper for us, he didn’t mean Mary. We have direct access to the throne thanks to His sacrifice on the cross.
“I am not the God of the dead but ov the living” Mary is still alive as are all of the saints.
Do you ask your congregation to pray for you?
Mary is part of our congregation.
She is a great asset. I would recommend you include her into your congregation.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:19 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Did anyone pray to or follow Jesus in the OT?
Are you comparing praying to Jesus and praying to Mary? This is the point I’m making. They are not and should not be viewed as equivalents. Can you find any OT references or examples where they prayed to anyone but God?
The other poster made the comparison to Mary and the Ark so that is why I asked the question.
Also of course nobody in the OT prayed to Jesus, but Jesus was there as part of the Trinity. They just didn’t know him yet. Despite this all of the OT points to Jesus and his coming. He is God. Mary is not.
Here is a great resource on the issues with praying to Mary and the Saints
LINK
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:25 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Catholics see everything revolving around the Roman Church, believing in apostolic succession and so on. I don't believe that at all. I see the one, true church of Jesus Christ being preserved and built over the past 2,000 years in spite of heresies and impurities coming and going. I don't see a necessity to move back to Rome because I believe the church, today, in spite of the divisions within it is still characterized as being ONE.
This
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:25 pm to Revelator
quote:That’s not how interpretation works. Perhaps application, but not interpretation.
So listening to the urging of the Holy Sprit while reading God’s word is ego
You overestimate your importance.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:33 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
why not ask for prayers from the mother of Jesus? Do you ask others to pray for you? If the saints are alive in God in heaven, why not ask them to pray for us?
From the link I just shared:
quote:
Let us examine the claim that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us:
1) Asking other believers (on earth) to pray for us is certainly biblical (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19.
2) The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking someone in heaven to pray for him or her. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.
3) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?
4) Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in a negative context involving activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10–13; 1 Samuel 28:7–19).
Praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking a friend here on earth to pray for us. Asking people on earth to pray for us has a strong biblical basis; asking the heavenly saints or Mary to pray has no biblical basis whatsoever.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:34 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I believe the church, today, in spite of the divisions within it is still characterized as being ONE.
So how do you square that with Christ's instruction in Matthew 18:15-20? The Church is the final arbiter of disagreements among the faithful. However, you being from the Reformed tradition and myself being from the Catholic tradition, we are going to have a number of disagreements that are considered to be of theological importantance.
If I believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist or that life begins at conception, but a fellow Christian who is a member of the Presbyterian Church (USA) holds neither of these beliefs, just who are we supposed to appeal to as a final arbiter? Obviously I won't accept the decision of their church just like they won't accept the judgment of mine.
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 1:35 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:34 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
That’s not how interpretation works. Perhaps application, but not interpretation. You overestimate your importance.
So if I read my Bible, compare it to parallel scriptures or use a concordance for word study to break down passages, our study the context or cultural practices of the day when the scripture was written, this is somehow wrong and leaning too much of my own understanding. But if I instead rely of the interpretation of another man, a Catholic theologian to tell me what the passage means, this is somehow acceptable?
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:48 pm to RebelExpress38
What do you make of Revelation 5:8
in terms of the article you posted.
this is an interesting claim by got answers, I don't think we should look on prayer as effective or not effective. Prayer is about our relationship with God not getting something from God like a vending machine. But I guess you could say that someone who has a perfect union with Jesus Christ may pray more effectively than us. But again they are phrasing this to make it sound bad. It's like you wanted a request of the president, you could ask him yourself but if you could convince one of his cabniet members or even the First Lady to ask for it, wouldn't it be more likely that he would grant it?
this is bad logic, where in scripture does it say we can't go to Jesus through others? Just because there is one mediator between God and man doesn't mean that the mediator can use other mediators. Jesus is the unique and ultimate mediator between god the father and man, but that doesn't mean there aren't mediators between Jesus and man.
so what do the saints in heaven do? What about the passage I posted above? The prayers of the holy ones, doesn't the elders bringing them to god suggest that could possibly hear our prayers?
making them able to hear prayers doesn't make the omniscient. Saints can't hear prayers on their own power, but God could give them that power.
the saints in heaven are not dead. Think of Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration, didn't they die in the Old Testament?
Why not both?
It's really a simple concept, if God hears the prayers on those who are alive on earth, why couldn't he hear the prayers of those alive in heaven?
Plus God isn't the God of the dead but of the living.
are you suggesting that those who have died and gone to heaven are still dead?
quote:
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
in terms of the article you posted.
quote:
In Catholic thinking, prayers delivered by a saint are more effective than our praying to God directly.
this is an interesting claim by got answers, I don't think we should look on prayer as effective or not effective. Prayer is about our relationship with God not getting something from God like a vending machine. But I guess you could say that someone who has a perfect union with Jesus Christ may pray more effectively than us. But again they are phrasing this to make it sound bad. It's like you wanted a request of the president, you could ask him yourself but if you could convince one of his cabniet members or even the First Lady to ask for it, wouldn't it be more likely that he would grant it?
quote:
“There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). There is no one else who can mediate with God for us. Since Jesus is the only mediator, Mary and the saints cannot be mediators.
this is bad logic, where in scripture does it say we can't go to Jesus through others? Just because there is one mediator between God and man doesn't mean that the mediator can use other mediators. Jesus is the unique and ultimate mediator between god the father and man, but that doesn't mean there aren't mediators between Jesus and man.
quote:
2) The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking someone in heaven to pray for him or her. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth.
so what do the saints in heaven do? What about the passage I posted above? The prayers of the holy ones, doesn't the elders bringing them to god suggest that could possibly hear our prayers?
quote:
Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?
making them able to hear prayers doesn't make the omniscient. Saints can't hear prayers on their own power, but God could give them that power.
quote:
4) Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in a negative context involving activities the Bible strongly condemns
the saints in heaven are not dead. Think of Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration, didn't they die in the Old Testament?
quote:
It is wrong to think that God will hear and answer the prayers of St. Jude, for example, over ours. Scripture teaches that prayer offered to God in faith, according to God’s will, from a redeemed heart will be heard.
Why not both?
It's really a simple concept, if God hears the prayers on those who are alive on earth, why couldn't he hear the prayers of those alive in heaven?
Plus God isn't the God of the dead but of the living.
quote:
Jesus said to them, “The children of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise.* That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called ‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.
are you suggesting that those who have died and gone to heaven are still dead?
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 1:49 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 1:56 pm to Guntoter1
quote:
This is true except for one thing.
Ehhh, the solas were not present in the early church. At least not sola scriptura, and not sola fide in the way its defined today by modern evangelicals. The rest could be workable with some nuance added.
I mean you have Irenaeus, who learned from Polycarp, who learned from John, stating in the 2nd century that the pillars of orthodoxy are scripture AND tradition, but the surest source of orthodoxy is the church in Rome.
Sounds a lot like scripture + tradition + magesterium to me.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:02 pm to catholictigerfan
I was just about to type out a response similar to yours, so thanks you saved me a lot of time 
I also find it odd that as Christians, we all believe that our Lord and savior was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born to a Virgin, and rose from the dead so that we may have eternal life. Yet... protestants draw the line at those who already have achieved eternal life interceding on our behalf. "Now that's just crazy!"
I also find it odd that as Christians, we all believe that our Lord and savior was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born to a Virgin, and rose from the dead so that we may have eternal life. Yet... protestants draw the line at those who already have achieved eternal life interceding on our behalf. "Now that's just crazy!"
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:04 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
this is bad logic, where in scripture does it say we can't go to Jesus through others? Just because there is one mediator between God and man doesn't mean that the mediator can use other mediators.
So it’s bad logic to use what the scripture plainly says, but it’s good logic to read into the Bible what’s not said?
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:05 pm to Revelator
quote:
So if I read my Bible, compare it to parallel scriptures or use a concordance for word study to break down passages, our study the context or cultural practices of the day when the scripture was written, this is somehow wrong and leaning too much of my own understanding. But if I instead rely of the interpretation of another man, a Catholic theologian to tell me what the passage means, this is somehow acceptable?
It has to do with authoritative teaching.
The question that this always boils down to is who has the authority to interpret scripture. The average bible believing Christian or a spirit guided Church established by Christ.
An average Christian can come to the truth by reading the scriptures by himself, however to teach with authority isn't something he can do on his own. Only Jesus or those he has given authority to can teach with authority.
Even the most intelligent scripture scholar teaches without authority, only those who have been given authority by Christ, and we posit that is the Catholic Church.
quote:
Amen, I say to you,
whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,
and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Again, amen, I say to you,
if two of you agree on earth
about anything for which they are to pray,
it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name,
there am I in the midst of them.”
Jesus was speaking to the apostles here, he was giving authority to the apostles. The authority to bind and loose, the authority for something they agree on to be granted by their Heavenly Father.
Jesus gave authority to his apostles, they taught with authority, and their authority didn't end with them, it continues with their successors.
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:05 pm to Revelator
quote:
So it’s bad logic to use what the scripture plainly says, but it’s good logic to read into the Bible what’s not said?
where in scripture does it say we can't have mediators between Jesus and others?
edit: the article I was responding to said you can go to others and ask them to pray for you, but if there is one mediator between God and man, and we should only go to Jesus with our prayers, why go to someone else? Seems like a contradiction to me.
Again if the saints are alive in heaven, couldn't they too be praying to God?
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 2:08 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:06 pm to Stitches
Well yeah, and all you had in the early church was oral and written tradition. Paul talked about it in 2 Thess 2:15. That's all there was until the Canon was established by... the Catholic Church.
I'm reading this right now
I'm reading this right now
This post was edited on 12/20/23 at 2:08 pm
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:22 pm to LSUJuice
“ Where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church”
Saint Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD
Saint Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:24 pm to Revelator
quote:
It’s God himself who instructs me
David Koresh said the same thing!
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:27 pm to Revelator
You seem to forget that God Almighty Himself ordered the carving of images when he commanded that the Cherubim figures adorn the Ark of the Covenant and He commanded Moses to make a figure of a serpent.
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:28 pm to Revelator
quote:
So if I read my Bible, compare it to parallel scriptures or use a concordance for word study to break down passages, our study the context or cultural practices of the day when the scripture was written, this is somehow wrong and leaning too much of my own understanding.
Let me ask this.
Why the need for all of that?
Posted on 12/20/23 at 2:40 pm to LSUJuice
Excellent book. Joe has a great one on the Eucharist as well. If you haven't already, check out his YouTube channel. It's called Shameless Popery.
Page 18 of 25
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News