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Started By
Message
re: "Please do not call Russia the aggressor in their war with Ukraine."
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:49 am to Bunk Moreland
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:49 am to Bunk Moreland
Who cares? Nobody listens to them anymore
1
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Raising the issue of "relevance" is an interesting response.
Crimea and Donbas voted over 90% to join Russia ... March 16 2014
As expected, an irrelevant date to the discussion being had.
As you've fixated on a 2013 90% vote of the Legislative Branch (Rada) vs a fully opposed Exec Branch, what is the Constitutional relevance to a 2014 coup d'état .... the latter of which is the transcendent element relative to the outbreak of respondent invasion.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:51 am to AGGIES
quote:
That was a huge eff up by Obama. Cannot just signal that there will be no resistance.
It emboldened Putin to continue with bigger plans.
Which is why Trump signaling the lack of interest to resist is no better.
It is funny that Trump is adopting Obama's foreign policy in the region but certain people would choose death before admitting that
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:52 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
As you've fixated on a 2013 90% vote of the Legislative Branch (Rada) vs a fully opposed Exec Branch
"Fully" opposed? Naw
This is creative language like the "EU pulled out" language. Not necessarily true, but creative.
quote:
what is the Constitutional relevance to a 2014 coup d'état
Again, more creative language.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 8:54 am to aero1126
quote:
I think he's pretty clear that he wants to stop the war, he just wants security guarantees
They keep talking about nuclear weapons that were never theirs. Can you imagine if that little dictator had nukes?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:19 am to momentoftruth87
quote:
How about we call it Zelensky the dumbass who isn’t wanting to stop the war
Everyone wants to stop every war; it's on what terms that causes the rub.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:20 am to dgnx6
quote:The Ukrainian population of 50 million was approximately 20% of the entire Soviet population. I would argue that 20% of all Soviet assets should have gone to Ukraine.
They keep talking about nuclear weapons that were never theirs.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:23 am to TheShmoo
Russia is the aggressor in their war with Ukraine.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:26 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Wars are fought for a reason. Why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine ... twice?
Putin is trying to put the band back together. You remember the USSR don't you? Putin has said that the fall of the USSR was the worst thing that ever happened to his country. One of Reagan's greatest accomplishment was winning the cold war and freeing 150m Eastern Europeans. Putin is trying like hell to put the pieces back together and enslaving all those people again.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:27 am to NC_Tigah
quote:Greed in general (Sevastopol in particular), combined with Russia's almost genetic xenophobic paranoia.
Why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine ... twice?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:27 am to memphisplaya
quote:
In 2014 it was a coup led by our own CIA that overturned a democratically elected gov and one that wanted to build a relationship with Russia economically instead of the European Union
This is true, but what it ignores is that Russia overturned the process to get that result.
The people of Georgia and Ukraine want to align with the West. You cannot go there and leave with any other impression.
The fact is that if left alone Russia will lean on these nearby countries, using methods from assassination to bribery, to get their governments to "align" with Russia. They have been doing it for two centuries, and the "alignment" always is maintained by force.
Doubt it? Go there and talk to the people you meet. You will agree with me if you do.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:33 am to aero1126
quote:
I think he's pretty clear that he wants to stop the war, he just wants security guarantees
Kinds, he wants the billions to keep flowing or the war stays. That’s his position. Dems are losing their laundering hub.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 9:58 am to TheShmoo
quote:
Please do not call Russia the aggressor in their war with Ukraine.
Why do people even respond to these gotcha games? Who gives AF who started it? Are you 12?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 10:35 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Yanukovych suspended plans for signing in late Nov 2013 to negotiate and absorb Russia's counteroffer. It was a delay, not a termination.
the EU broke off dialogue.
---------
What?
The EU responded by insulting Yanukovych, and then broke off dialogue, saying "It is no use to continue discussion.”
--------------
Yanukovych suspended preparations for signing the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement on November 21, 2013. This suspension wasn’t a formal cancellation, but rather a decision to pause the process of finalizing and signing it.
Why the Yanukovych hesitancy in signing the "deal"?
Because Russia said, if you want the EU as your partner under current circumstances, that is fine. But it will dramatically impede the Russo-Ukraine trade relationship.
In 2013, Ukraine was in, or on the cusp of, recession. Signing the trade pact the EU wanted at that point, along with the pending Russian response, would have crushed the Ukrainian economy. Yanukovych knew that, so he asked for EU compensation and/or trade guarantees to bridge the gap. The EU held a hard line -- no compensation, no concessions.
In the meantime, to preserve the Russo-Ukraine trade relationship, Russia offered to purchase $15B in Ukrainian debt (with $3B immediately) over two years at a 5% ROI, whereas the EU wanted 9-10%. Russia's offer for badly needed debt financing was simply a better deal for Ukraine in the moment. The EU pitched a hissy fit as it saw Yanukovych leaning toward Russia.
The EU responded first by catalyzing the Ukraine Euromaidan riots, along with the US. Then with the announcement that “Words & deeds of Ukraine's President & government regarding Association Agreement are further & further apart. Their arguments have no grounds in reality. It is no use to continue discussion.”
Granted, once Yanukovych was obviously imperiled, the EU softened their hardline, and said they'd still be willing to do the deal, but w/o concessions.
Eventually in March, after Yanukovych was overthrown, Ukraine did sign the EU's DCFTA deal. As predicted, w/o EU concessions, the Ukrainian economy tanked. It contracted ~ 6.5% in 2014, and nearly 10% in 2015. Their currency lost half its value, inflation spiked to nearly 50% .... and the EU?
The EU said "Deal With It."
In the end Ukraine never sniffed EU membership.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 10:37 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Yanukovych suspended plans for signing in late Nov 2013 to negotiate and absorb Russia's counteroffer. It was a delay, not a termination.
The EU responded by insulting Yanukovych, and then broke off dialogue, saying "It is no use to continue discussion.”
LINK?
I literally posted as cite to an EU representative cancelling a trip to discuss further because of the "bride stealing" by Russia. That is not cancelling discussions if further discussions were literally planned.
I posted a cite from NOVEMBER 29 where the EU said it would "continue the dialogue with its Ukrainian partners"
quote:
He said at a press conference after the Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius on Friday that the EU would continue its dialog with its Ukrainian partners "on the key principles of mutual respect, transparency, and individual and collective ownership."
This post was edited on 2/23/25 at 10:38 am
Posted on 2/23/25 at 10:39 am to momentoftruth87
quote:
How about we call it Zelensky the dumbass who isn’t wanting to stop the war
Facts. He's using this war to advance his country's standing on the international stage and probably enrich himself and the Ukrainian oligarchs in the process. He's using all his best actor skills and even wearing costumes on the daily.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 10:49 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine ... twice?
Greed in general (Sevastopol in particular)
TTBOMK, they only invaded Sevastopol once.
But given your assumption, the Russian's must be incredibly dumb, certainly dumber than you or others might credit them. The greedy dummies could have far more easily marched through the Eastern Oblasts in 2014.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 10:58 am to SlowFlowPro
SFP, do not question the narrative even if it is based in semi fantasy. MAGA is a clown college populated by untalented fools. They are not conservative nor are they even nationalistic. They have proven themselves to be populist fools following a transactional narcissist.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 11:02 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It is funny that Trump is adopting Obama's foreign policy in the region but certain people would choose death before admitting that
Trump is advocating forceful regime change of a democratically elected government?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 11:05 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
Trump is advocating forceful regime change of a democratically elected government?
That was not Obama's policy in Ukraine in 2014
And that didn't happen, also, but that's a different discussion
Obama Says Still No Ukraine Intervention As More Russians Cross Border
quote:
“We are not taking military action to solve the Ukrainian problem,” Obama said from the White House Thursday. “What we're doing is [mobilizing] the international community to apply pressure on Russia. But I think it is very important to recognize that a military solution to this problem is not going to be forthcoming.”
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