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Started By
Message
re: New Orleans native named top leader at ICE, deepening Louisiana's ties to the agency
Posted on 1/23/26 at 12:34 am to 4cubbies
Posted on 1/23/26 at 12:34 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Why would I care about "mainstream Christianity?" Why would I want to fit in with prosperity gospel protestants?
Was thinking about the previous almost 2000 years, works like Diuturnum and related works.
Even much earlier there was the Two Swords of Gelasius.
quote:
Punishment becomes degrading when it treats the person as disposable rather than accountable, it is imposed arbitrarily or selectively, it serves domination rather than the common good,
Again, we have trial by jury and public defenders.
There is nothing arbitrary about the American judicial system.
Laws are written by the select representatives of the people.
Laws about murder are indeed for the common good.
Are these not aligned with Aquinas?
quote:
Strong language. Dignitatis Humanae is not a “new Aquinas." Dignitatis Humanae, properly understood, does not supersede God’s demand for righteousness; it limits how coercion may be used, not whether moral truth may be judged or upheld.
Summa Theologica does not align with many many of your statements here, hence your claims of Dignitatis are a new version of Aquinas that he would not recognize.
Can you address his points on what an unjust law would be other than you feel imprisonment is not for the common good?
That said truthfully I don’t think much of Aquinas, he was a man who had some interesting points.
quote:
None of the scripture you quoted talks about humans being stripped of their dignity by sinning.
You would be hard pressed to find scripture speaking of human dignity in the way Aquinas later does.
Look at how 2 Peter phrased it.
quote:
19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”
Slaves of depravity?
Or
quote:
Jeremiah 13
22 And if you ask yourself,
“Why has this happened to me?”—
it is because of your many sins
that your skirts have been torn off
and your body mistreated.
Continued
quote:
25 This is your lot,
the portion I have decreed for you,”
declares the Lord,
“because you have forgotten me
and trusted in false gods.
26 I will pull up your skirts over your face
that your shame may be seen—
27 your adulteries and lustful neighings,
your shameless prostitution!
I have seen your detestable acts
on the hills and in the fields.
Woe to you, Jerusalem!
How long will you be unclean?”
quote:
Encourage what sins?
Lawlessness.
quote:
It's the selective enforcement of said laws that I have a problem with, not necessarily the laws themselves.
So wait are you now ok with our laws? Or at least most.
This post was edited on 1/23/26 at 12:36 am
1
Posted on 1/23/26 at 1:04 am to 4cubbies
quote:
What would it take to humanize “illegals” for you?
Them moving back to their own countries.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 6:33 am to 4cubbies
quote:
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS OK?!"
Idk. Why do you think it’s okay to continue to believe such bullshite like Trayvon martin and Sandra bland were murdered by police?
It’s a very simple verifiable thing. Yet, still, you continue to hold on to your misinformed beliefs.
Why won’t you simply admit you were wrong? It really is simple. Your continued refusal to admit you are wrong is, quite literally, pathetic and a leading reason why you are a complete and total joke of a human being.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 7:07 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Only US citizens are humans. Gotcha.
shite like this is why I will never understand why anyone gives this sociopath any attention.
What a disingenuous post after several honest replies.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 8:57 am to SludgeFactory
quote:
shite like this is why I will never understand why anyone gives this sociopath any attention.
Engaging in an on-topic discussion isn't "giving attention" to someone; it's participating in an in-topic discussion.
quote:
What a disingenuous post after several honest replies.
My response was also honest. You just don't like it.
Disingenuous is pretending you would suddenly start treating random strangers like humans if they were standing in a different country. The reality is these people would be ignored by you (and the person who made that post) at best. Of course, no one has to care about random strangers in other countries, so why pretend you would?
These people are vilified because you've been told to vilify them. You decided that since (through absolutely no action or choice of your own) you happened to be born in the country you want to live in, you hold some sort of moral superiority to other people who were coincidentally born somewhere else. You didn’t earn your citizenship through virtue any more than they chose their place of birth through vice.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 9:00 am to 4cubbies
quote:
You decided that since (through absolutely no action or choice of your own) you happened to be born in the country you want to live in, you hold some sort of moral superiority to other people who were coincidentally born somewhere else.
The United States shouldn't be the dumping ground for Third World 'Immigrants' or 'Refugees' or 'Migrants' or whatever name you want to call them other than what they are - Illegal Aliens or Illegal Immigrants.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 9:05 am to BarnHater
Louisiana continues to be the epicenter of the MAGA movement. I have never been prouder to be born and raised here.
—-
Trump likes La.
He was the only one that came down for the 2016 floods in SELA.
—-
Trump likes La.
He was the only one that came down for the 2016 floods in SELA.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 9:23 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Only US citizens are humans. Gotcha.
This is funny coming from someone who personifies the party of dehumanization to justify violence
Posted on 1/23/26 at 9:33 am to Narax
quote:
There is nothing arbitrary about the American judicial system.
Non-arbitrary doesn't mean incapable of injustice.
quote:
Laws are written by the select representatives of the people.
Self-interested, flawed representatives with agendas.
quote:
Laws about murder are indeed for the common good.
Agreed. Yet some people literally get away with murder (think OJ Simpson, Robert Durst).
quote:
Are these not aligned with Aquinas?
American criminal law regarding murder is aligned with Aquinas in principle.
quote:If we allow our sinful natures to run our lives.
Slaves of depravity?
quote:Can you state specifically what you're referring to? I don't recall encouraging people to embrace lawlessness. Being critical of the enforcement of laws, or laws themselves isn't the same encouraging lawlessness. It's just thinking critically.
Lawlessness.
quote:
So wait are you now ok with our laws? Or at least most.
Again, I'm not sure what you're referring to. You're asking me to defend or modify an alleged claim of mine that society should embrace lawlessness? I don't recall making such a claim.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 9:38 am to tommy2tone1999
quote:
This is funny coming from someone who personifies the party of dehumanization to justify violence
In what ways do I personify a party of dehumanization? In what ways have I justified violence?
Also, if you’re going to psychoanalyze, the word you want is “embodies,” not “personifies.”
Posted on 1/23/26 at 9:56 am to ronricks
quote:
The United States shouldn't be the dumping ground for Third World 'Immigrants' or 'Refugees' or 'Migrants' or whatever name you want to call them other than what they are - Illegal Aliens or Illegal Immigrants.
Who, exactly, is doing the “dumping”?
There’s no foreign government loading people onto buses and shipping them here as waste. People come on their own in response to economic incentives, labor demand, asylum law, and U.S. policy.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 11:17 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Non-arbitrary doesn't mean incapable of injustice.
It is one criteria of Just law according to Aquinas,
Another of Aquinas's measures is it must be created by a legitimate authority, I haven't see you attempting to use his test to evaluate laws.
quote:
Self-interested, flawed representatives with agendas.
In his time he considered Laws from Kings to be just if applied to the population as a whole for the common good (Acknowledging that the common good means that individuals will fare poorly under it).
You are imposing a standard on lawmakers, who are far less corrupt than any in history, while attributing your personal prejudice on them. Most politicians, do indeed believe that they are creating laws better for the nation as a whole. Some of them are obviously insane, but of the tens of thousands of laws written per year, the vast vast majority are intended for the common good, and not the self enrichment of lawmakers (Again Aquinas Standard).
quote:
Agreed. Yet some people literally get away with murder (think OJ Simpson, Robert Durst).
That was not a problem with the law, but with individuals who prevented the Law from happening, To note both of them continued in their deprivations and eventually received civil and final judgement.
The law will not get everyone, some will always slip through, but without law, they will all escape judgement until the final judgement.
Creating more victims often like Durst.
quote:
American criminal law regarding murder is aligned with Aquinas in principle.
I do think we agree there (because I don't think you are a crazy anarchist) which is why I do get confused when you speak broadly about laws in general.
quote:
If we allow our sinful natures to run our lives.
quote:
The purpose of human law is to lead men to virtue, not suddenly, but gradually. Wherefore it does not lay upon the multitude of imperfect men the burdens of those who are already virtuous, viz. that they should abstain from all evil.
quote:
Can you state specifically what you're referring to? I don't recall encouraging people to embrace lawlessness. Being critical of the enforcement of laws, or laws themselves isn't the same encouraging lawlessness. It's just thinking critically.
To note, you are quite anti US Immigration law and it's enforcement, casting your dislike for the law as it being unjust.
quote:
1995 Criminal Trial Jury Makeup
The final 12-member jury that acquitted Simpson was composed of:
Race: 9 Black, 1 Hispanic, and 2 White members.
Gender: 10 women and 2 men.
Education: Only 2 were college graduates; 9 had high school diplomas, and 1 did not have a high school diploma.
Politics: All 12 jurors were registered Democrats.
Media Habits: None of the jurors regularly read a newspaper, but 8 regularly watched tabloid television shows like Hard Copy.
Key Jury Characteristics and Selection Factors
Strategic Selection: Defense consultant Jo-Ellan Dimitrius identified the "perfect juror" for the defense as a Black female with a high school education or less, believing they would be less sympathetic to the prosecution.
Negative Experiences with Law Enforcement: Five jurors reported that they or a family member had previously had a negative experience with the police.
Views on Domestic Violence: Five jurors stated on their questionnaires that they thought it was sometimes acceptable to use force on a family member.
Athlete Perception: Nine jurors believed Simpson was less likely to have committed the crime because of his success as a professional athlete.
Your own example of someone who got away with murder started with a jury selection of people who fundamentally thought laws were unjust.
quote:
I don't recall making such a claim.
I'm asking, are you ok with most US Laws, you just said the people who write laws are "Self-interested, flawed representatives with agendas."
Do you believe most US Civil law is just?
Posted on 1/23/26 at 11:18 am to Narax
This is a war of attrition, I see.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 11:42 am to 4cubbies
quote:
This is a war of attrition, I see.
Says the emotional being who refuses to admit when she is wrong……
Bueller?
Bueller?
Bueller?
“I was wrong beerjeep. I was wrong that Trayvon martin was not shot and killed by police. He was justifiably killed by a citizen whom Trayvon violently attacked.”
“I was wrong beerjeep. I was wrong and Sandra bland was not murdered by police officers. She committed suicide in her jail cell on her own accord”
See, sweetie pie, it really is that simple.
This post was edited on 1/23/26 at 11:45 am
Posted on 1/23/26 at 11:44 am to Narax
quote:
You are imposing a standard on lawmakers, who are far less corrupt than any in history, while attributing your personal prejudice on them
I'm not. I'm arguing that because flawed, self-interested humans are responsible for writing, interpreting, applying and enforcing laws - there is unavoidable bias imbedded in all facets of our "justice" system (whether intentional or not). Bias can exist even when intention is good.
The American system explicitly assumes this. Juries, adversarial procedure, appellate review, and separation of powers exist precisely because neutrality cannot be guaranteed.
quote:
That was not a problem with the law, but with individuals who prevented the Law from happening, To note both of them continued in their deprivations and eventually received civil and final judgement.
The law will not get everyone, some will always slip through, but without law, they will all escape judgement until the final judgement.
I’m not claiming all laws are inherently unjust. I’m saying that law only exists in practice through human interpretation, application, and enforcement, and those are unavoidably shaped by bias, discretion, and power imbalances.
quote:I aspire to be a crazy anarchist. I wish I wasn't so civilized.
I do think we agree there (because I don't think you are a crazy anarchist) which is why I do get confused when you speak broadly about laws in general.
I'm speaking about the legal system as a whole, not just written laws. Laws can be problematic, but my perception is that the most egregious injustices happen after laws are written.
quote:
To note, you are quite anti US Immigration law and it's enforcement, casting your dislike for the law as it being unjust.
I believe the entire immigration system needs to overhauled. It's obviously broken and deporting 20 million people isn't going to fix it.
Mass deportation quotas and arbitrary enforcement tactics are neither just nor workable. That’s a critique of policy and enforcement, not a rejection of law itself.
quote:I don't claim an encyclopedia of knowledge. I follow most laws, disagree with some, and ignore a few trivial ones. I don't pretend that makes me a revolutionary (just someone who is capable of critical thinking).
I'm asking, are you ok with most US Laws, you just said the people who write laws are "Self-interested, flawed representatives with agendas."
Do you believe most US Civil law is just?
Posted on 1/23/26 at 11:45 am to 4cubbies
Bueller?
Bueller?
Bueller?
Bueller?
Bueller?
Posted on 1/23/26 at 11:56 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Hmmm…. Enforcement is certainly based on privilege.
Yea that was a shame when Biden used the FBI to target conservatives. Not cool.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 12:02 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
What would it take to humanize “illegals” for you?
follow the law
assimilate
don't come here to specifically live off welfare
do not steal from the American taxpayers
If you can't agree with this, we don't belong co existing in the same society together.
My grandmother came here from Italy during WWII to be with my grandfather who was in the army. She could not speak any english. She followed the law, worked through the process, paid her fees and became a citizen.
She worked at DH Holmes until she retired and raised a family. til the day she died, she said if she did it the right way, they all need to do it the right way. Let's add in that the Italians were the enemies at that time and there was a lot of hate towards her.
I will never change my thought process because of what my grandmother did and how she did it.
Do it right or go back home. It's not my job to pay for your welfare.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 1:18 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I'm not. I'm arguing that because flawed, self-interested humans are responsible for writing, interpreting, applying and enforcing laws - there is unavoidable bias imbedded in all facets of our "justice" system (whether intentional or not). Bias can exist even when intention is good.
The American system explicitly assumes this. Juries, adversarial procedure, appellate review, and separation of powers exist precisely because neutrality cannot be guaranteed.
It sounds like we have an amazing system that tries very hard to give Justice to all.
quote:
I’m not claiming all laws are inherently unjust. I’m saying that law only exists in practice through human interpretation, application, and enforcement, and those are unavoidably shaped by bias, discretion, and power imbalances.
You deny natural law?
You act like this is some war of attrition, but you holding onto artificial definitions that have no reality is not a war, its lunacy.
You cannot both claim that Eternal law exists, and that humans are somehow the only practical application of it.
If you want to use Aquinas to defend this honestly weak humanistic definition of "Dignity" then you have to understand his division of Eternal, Divine, Human and Natural laws.
Hebrews and Jeremiah are both plain
quote:
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
That God could give law directly to hearts and minds and then somehow it is valid for us to be interpreting them?
No, one either accepts or rejects such law.
One can have an interpretation of if actions applied to a law, that is the function of Juries. It is not for them to determine what the law means.
quote:
I'm speaking about the legal system as a whole, not just written laws. Laws can be problematic, but my perception is that the most egregious injustices happen after laws are written.
Then I would throw less shade on the laws themselves, such as immigration law which is just law.
quote:
I aspire to be a crazy anarchist. I wish I wasn't so civilized.
I think you have far too much wealth to ever follow up your statements with actions.
I believe in our legal system and support it via taxes, voting, civil engagement, jury duty.
It is a just system, and a few cases of the powerful escaping justice and a few cases of wrongful convictions do not make an unjust system.
There are whole leftwing organizations that drag up cases long decided, after evidence and witnesses have disappeared to retry cases, with the express purpose to convince people like you that the whole system is unjust.
quote:
I believe the entire immigration system needs to overhauled. It's obviously broken and deporting 20 million people isn't going to fix it.
I think we all agree there needs to be a longer term fix, but I also think a nation cannot stand while it's laws are openly flaunted.
quote:
Mass deportation quotas and arbitrary enforcement tactics are neither just nor workable. That’s a critique of policy and enforcement, not a rejection of law itself.
They are working, many many criminals have been deported, people who have actively harmed the common good.
And these aren't arbitrary, they have an enforcement goal that is applied across a behavior.
That you personally dislike them does not make them arbitrary, unworkable, or unjust.
Those people knew the law, it was issued by legal authorities, they knowingly broke the law.
That is not injustice.
quote:
I don't claim an encyclopedia of knowledge. I follow most laws, disagree with some, and ignore a few trivial ones. I don't pretend that makes me a revolutionary (just someone who is capable of critical thinking).
The far left promotes false ideas that laws are unjust, that enforcement is unjust, it's a way they psyche people up to fight against laws that... they just fundamentally disagree with.
BLM made matters far far worse when it went from a grass roots organization with a legitimate concern to a far left anarchist/marxist led de-policing movement that led to a number of black lives being lost.
There will always be those who throw around terms like unjust, they often do not have the common good in mind.
Posted on 1/23/26 at 2:39 pm to Narax
quote:
It sounds like we have an amazing system that tries very hard to give Justice to all.
We are entitled to our opinions.
quote:
You deny natural law?
You act like this is some war of attrition, but you holding onto artificial definitions that have no reality is not a war, its lunacy.
I'm discussing government laws. You keep bringing up other laws. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, my commentary pertains the laws written and enforced by the government.
quote:I have children.
I think you have far too much wealth to ever follow up your statements with actions.
quote:
It is a just system, and a few cases of the powerful escaping justice and a few cases of wrongful convictions do not make an unjust system.
Your opinion. Not a fact.
quote:Oh? I work within system and am capable of drawing my own conclusions based on what I observe with my own eyes.
There are whole leftwing organizations that drag up cases long decided, after evidence and witnesses have disappeared to retry cases, with the express purpose to convince people like you that the whole system is unjust.
I don't have a problem with you believing everyone is treated fairly and equally in this country. You are free to deny the abundance of evidence proving otherwise.
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