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re: Lower and Middle Class America has declined over the past 50 years
Posted on 4/3/25 at 7:58 am to 50_Tiger
Posted on 4/3/25 at 7:58 am to 50_Tiger
quote:
They don't need to exist period.
Sure.
But removing them is going to create negative impacts on the economy.
Like with raising prices via tariffs being ignored, that's the part being ignored about the federal worker stuff.
This is kind of like the "I wasn't told during the campaign Trump's plan was to crash the economy in order to lower rates so we could refi debt at a lower rate, because he couldn't bully the Fed to do so on its own"
1
Posted on 4/3/25 at 7:59 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Much of the pro-tariff theory revolves around pretending/arguing that prices won't go up, when it's a necessary reality to create the market for these jobs.
Prices can and will go up. The question is are these price increases off set by other boons.
Bringing these jobs back increases tax revenues, keeps those dollars circulating in our own economy and lowers reliance on social welfare programs.
quote:
OK groomer
That's shut your arse up.This post was edited on 4/3/25 at 8:00 am
Posted on 4/3/25 at 7:59 am to texag7
quote:
tour bus driver
Hes passed out drunk right now.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:02 am to texag7
I'm pointing out your conflation.
These tariffs and this argument is for lower level manufacturing jobs.
The reference to your OP was the "Lower and Middle Class America has declined over the past 50 years" and "And the entire time jobs and manufacturing being shipped overseas for decades.", and I was pointing out your conflation.
Chip manufacturing has not been "shipped overseas". Taiwan just created a niche in developing the highest of high-end chips. They didn't steal this from the US (and they are not the "paid $0.50/hour" example) and developed it on their own.
What has been "shipped overseas" is lower-level manufacturing jobs that are not productive enough to warrant the min wage. These went to developing countries who had economies where this labor was productive.
These tariffs and this argument is for lower level manufacturing jobs.
The reference to your OP was the "Lower and Middle Class America has declined over the past 50 years" and "And the entire time jobs and manufacturing being shipped overseas for decades.", and I was pointing out your conflation.
Chip manufacturing has not been "shipped overseas". Taiwan just created a niche in developing the highest of high-end chips. They didn't steal this from the US (and they are not the "paid $0.50/hour" example) and developed it on their own.
What has been "shipped overseas" is lower-level manufacturing jobs that are not productive enough to warrant the min wage. These went to developing countries who had economies where this labor was productive.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:05 am to Azkiger
quote:
Prices can and will go up. The question is are these price increases off set by other boons.
How will shifting the excess in those price increases to unproductive, inefficient labor going to create boons?
You're taking money from the actually productive sectors of the economy and forcing it into various inefficiencies (higher prices, unproductive redistribution of wealth, etc.). That is the theory behind "Tariffs to bring lower level manufacturing home to replicate the halcyon 60s" policy.
quote:
Bringing these jobs back increases tax revenues
While taking away tax revenue form higher earners.
quote:
keeps those dollars circulating in our own economy
While taking away dollars circulating in more productive areas of our own economy.
quote:
and lowers reliance on social welfare programs.
Speculation at best.
quote:
That's shut your arse up.
No. I'm calling you a Leftist because you're using LITERAL Leftist talking points against the free market and less government intervention.
You sound exactly like Rex circa 2009
This post was edited on 4/3/25 at 8:06 am
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:06 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
What has been "shipped overseas" is lower-level manufacturing jobs that are not productive enough to warrant the min wage.
How do you know that is the case as opposed to the expenses could be lowered by lower overseas labor costs?
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:06 am to Azkiger
quote:
The question is are these price increases off set by other boons.
This is a zero sum game because it doesn't create any wealth. The boon is that people are happy to have a little less spending power because their neighbor has a job at the plant now.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:07 am to SlowFlowPro
That brings up an interesting point. I forget the name of that documentary Obama funded about the Chinese glass factory in Ohio. The place was like hell on earth to work. If we bring back a bunch of work like that which doesn't pay well, are we much better off?
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:07 am to Azkiger
quote:
How do you know that is the case
Look at the jobs that left.
Lower-level manufacturing jobs that are not productive enough to warrant the min wage.
We will go back to my original post.
Currently a job at McDonalds is higher-paced, more skilled, and more economically productive than these jobs you want back (without governmetn intervention and redistribution of wealth). Why do they deserve double/triple the salary of a McDonalds worker (+ benefits and retirement, if we're going fully halcyon)?
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:08 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Sure.
But removing them is going to create negative impacts on the economy.
Like with raising prices via tariffs being ignored, that's the part being ignored about the federal worker stuff.
I don't think no one is arguing that short term job losses do not have a negative impact. I am particularly arguing the necessity of them to begin with. Also the bigger thing is a majority of these loss jobs have a 12-18 month buffer of cash from severance packages.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:09 am to Bunk Moreland
quote:
I forget the name of that documentary Obama funded about the Chinese glass factory in Ohio. The place was like hell on earth to work.
I do not remember this
quote:
If we bring back a bunch of work like that which doesn't pay well, are we much better off?
This + hurting our higher-end of the economy and "class" of our population.
As flats just pointed out (and I did earlier), this policy doesn't create anything and takes form the producers to give to the unproductive class. This is why they are so focused on having this argument while pretending prices won't be affected (when the policy itself requires the prices to be higher).
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:11 am to dnm3305
quote:
Hmmm, what could correlate with that?
The erosion of American manufacturing and job closures nationwide due to corporations taking advantage of Chinese labor working for $.50/hr?
Exactly my response! This happened not by accident, but corporate influence on DC to allow China in the WTO. Corporations chasing profits at the expense of America's security and its cutizens. Trump is attempting to undo that damage and put America first, which is why we voted for him.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:12 am to texag7
quote:
All because they want cheap shite on Amazon
this is the only logical reason for their position.
quote:
hate Trump.
this is the driving force behind every action they take - regardless of the reason.
It's all they got -- other than those two facts they are nothing more than an out of control robotic wrecking machine.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:12 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
It's all they got -- other than those two facts they are nothing more than an out of control robotic wrecking machine.
The pricing of goods is not some insignificant point you can just discard like you're trying to do
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:12 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
If we bring back a bunch of work like that which doesn't pay well, are we much better off?
This + hurting our higher-end of the economy and "class" of our population.
As flats just pointed out (and I did earlier), this policy doesn't create anything and takes form the producers to give to the unproductive class. This is why they are so focused on having this argument while pretending prices won't be affected (when the policy itself requires the prices to be higher)
Simply inaccurate.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:13 am to texag7
quote:The only way jobs move back is 1/ US workers work for internationally competitive wages or 2/ tariffs are high enough to make good so expensive that US workers are competitive. 1- will not be bood for the "lower" or "middle" class. 2- will require tariffs an order of magnitude higher than what Trump is doing, and by defintion would create massive price inflation. It's just simple math.
According to some idiots here tariffs possibly forcing jobs back to the US will hurt the lower and middle class badly.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:15 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
While taking away tax revenue form higher earners.
Higher earners would pay less taxes only if their salaries dropped.
How does bringing manufacturing back necessarily cause other industries to be paid less?
quote:
While taking away dollars circulating in more productive areas of our own economy.
A smaller piece of a bigger pie might be more pie than a bigger piece of a smaller pie.
quote:
Speculation at best.
Hardly. If you make more you receive less benefits.
quote:
No. I'm calling you a Leftist because you're using LITERAL Leftist talking points against the free market and less government intervention.
I know you're acting like an idiot, you don't have to keep telling me.
Some government regs are necessary. We can't (shouldn't) lower ourselves to the industrial standards of China just to be able to compete with them.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:15 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:It's a backdoor minimum wage. With the same economic fallacies. Why not just enact price controls on all goods?
No the redistribution will help them get inefficient (and overpaid) jobs.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:16 am to texag7
Seems the middle class is more comfortable than in the past, larger homes, more vacations, more toys. But, I agree with bringing manufacturing back.
Posted on 4/3/25 at 8:17 am to texag7
quote:
According to some idiots here tariffs possibly forcing jobs back to the US will hurt the lower and middle class badly. All because they want cheap shite on Amazon and hate Trump.
The people arguing for cheap imports are ones who don’t have to worry about money because they have either a high paying white collar job or are retired on fixed income.
Blue collar people living paycheck to paycheck want the manufacturing jobs to come back because they want opportunities to make more. They already struggle even with cheap imports due to lack of opportunity
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