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re: Let's talk about some marital privilege and class signaling
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:09 pm to Iosh
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:09 pm to Iosh
Most liberals just see it the other way around. They see marriage not as a cause of the wealth disparities but as an effect. In their minds, it is not that marriage creates financial stability for couples and gives children a better home learning environment leading to their children having better educational outcomes and lower crime statistics.
They see conservatives as putting the cart before the horse. Financial stability creates marriages, not the other way around in their minds. They see poor people as not being able to afford to be married. Broken homes do not cause poverty. Poverty causes broken homes. Children do not grow up to be criminals because they are products of single-mothers, but that poverty causes single mothers to raise children who grow up to be criminals.
It's a chicken or the egg argument.
They see conservatives as putting the cart before the horse. Financial stability creates marriages, not the other way around in their minds. They see poor people as not being able to afford to be married. Broken homes do not cause poverty. Poverty causes broken homes. Children do not grow up to be criminals because they are products of single-mothers, but that poverty causes single mothers to raise children who grow up to be criminals.
It's a chicken or the egg argument.
0
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:10 pm to CoachChappy
quote:
2 people working typically have more money and assists than 1? Wait 2 > 1? frick me! We need to start theaching this in school
I don't think it's limited to 2 income homes.
My husband and I divide tasks. He works and focuses primarily on advancing his career and providing for our family. I maintain the home,care for the kids,focus on our relationship,etc. My attention isn't divided and neither is his. We're focused on our roles. He doesn't miss work because we have a sick kid and it's "his turn". He doesn't have to leave work to pick up the kids. If he is in the middle of something important he knows I've got things covered at home and will not find his need to complete a task as an imposition. This has allowed him to take on responsibilities others could not and his dedication did not go unnoticed. I don't think he would have advanced as quickly if we were dividing duties. I can't imagine doing it any other way but I know our way doesn't work for everyone.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:11 pm to Iosh
quote:
Not only is it wrong, it's wrong in a way that encourages positive feedback and more wrongness because the easiest way to make your position virtuous and correct is to compare it to a vague, extreme view that very few of its opponents actually believe.
so who is creating and proliferating the concepts like "nuclear family privilege"? people to my right?
quote:
SFP here claiming that "the progs" are responsible for the drop in marriage rates,
naw, i'm talking about the concepts of privilege that they are responsible for and apply to areas like the drop in marriage rates
here is the actual comment-response
you continue to ignore that, as well as about 95% of what text has been posted in this thread, to drive home a point that i never really made (and you said i was creating a strawman, which is the height of irony)
i even said within this thread that the women who ARE getting married are the ones who are college educated and working (so they are much more likely to skew liberal)
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:13 pm to Iosh
quote:
This is because the far left actually doesn't have that much influence in America.
yeah that's how a male just won the Connecticut high school state title in the female 100m and 200m
very little influence
or are you going to claim insanity like this isn't representative of the actual far left?
This post was edited on 6/6/17 at 5:15 pm
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:14 pm to Iosh
The marriage drop has virtually nothing to do with liberal's opinions on the matter, and everything to do with the laws they have created that reward single mothers.
Who has it better:
Cohabitants where the woman has a Section 8 home, WIC, welfare, food stamps, etc., while the male lives there for free (off lease).
or
A married couple where both work low paying jobs and pay for everything.
Who has it better:
Cohabitants where the woman has a Section 8 home, WIC, welfare, food stamps, etc., while the male lives there for free (off lease).
or
A married couple where both work low paying jobs and pay for everything.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:17 pm to CoachChappy
"We need to start teaching this in school."
100% agreed. Call it "personal and financial responsibility" and be sure it includes a chapter on compound interest.
100% agreed. Call it "personal and financial responsibility" and be sure it includes a chapter on compound interest.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:18 pm to Pinecone Repair
Excellent point! I'm glad y'all have it worked out for what is best for y'all. 
It still proves my point of 2 > 1.
You sound like what my grandpaw would call a "good womans"
It still proves my point of 2 > 1.
You sound like what my grandpaw would call a "good womans"
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:"Nuclear Family Privilege" is the exact opposite of what you're claiming progressives believe. When a leftist calls something a "privilege" they are saying it confers advantages. For fricks sake you aren't even using the lingo right.
so who is creating and proliferating the concepts like "nuclear family privilege"? people to my right?
But if we taboo the label and just get to the underlying concept: Yes, there are people to your left who think marriage is inherently economically oppressive and should be dissuaded. They're just so far to your left that they are also to the left of every member of Congress and probably >80% of Democratic voters in this country. Nobody gives a shite about them, which is why gay people can get married.
quote:I'm referring to the OP. Here is what you said in your OP:
naw, i'm talking about the concepts of privilege that they are responsible for and apply to areas like the drop in marriage rates
here is the actual comment-response
quote:Your OP is clear, insofar as your use of broad labels is ever clear, that "progressivism" created a negative connotation around marriage. And I'm saying this is bullshite and you need receipts.
this is just one of those classic "class values" situations, where it's clear that we know which avenue is superior and for whatever reason, we create a negative connotation around the behavior while defending those who reject the more optimal set of decisions. it's insanity of progressivism and really, REALLY ends up fricking over the very people they claim to defend.
This post was edited on 6/6/17 at 5:23 pm
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:24 pm to Iosh
quote:
Your OP is clear, insofar as your use of broad labels is ever clear, that "progressivism" created a negative connotation around marriage.
You're probably too young to remember the 80s politically and culturally. Definitely the 70s. Progressivism's bent was destroying the nuclear family in both those decades. Having been largely successful, they've moved on to other targets.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:28 pm to Iosh
quote:
"Nuclear Family Privilege" is the exact opposite of what you're claiming progressives believe. When a leftist calls something a "privilege" they are saying it confers advantages. For fricks sake you aren't even using the lingo right.
and that creates a negative connotation around the concept, which is the point of using "privilege"
the problem is that instead of promoting the idea of marriage to those who aren't getting married, they create this mythical advantage that is outside of the grasp of the non-privileged. go read the article in OP
quote:
These trends can also create cycles. Children raised outside of marriage have higher rates of poverty and teen parenthood, while young adults whose mothers attended college are more than twice as likely to graduate from college as children with less-educated mothers.
Those children in turn, due to their lack of education, are themselves less likely to form long-term, stable relationships. It's a cycle that proves difficult to break
it's not that difficult to break if we stigmatize the sub-optimal behaviors and are honest about them. instead, flipping this around and calling (in this case) marriage a "privilege" confers a fatalism that just doesn't exist.
conservatives aren't the ones creating this mythology and word play. they've always supported marriage as an institution for society, especially when children are involved.
quote:
Yes, there are people to your left who think marriage is inherently economically oppressive and should be dissuaded. They're just so far to your left that they are also to the left of every member of Congress and probably >80% of Democratic voters in this country.
yeah and that's great. other than a side comment (with a reference to a poster in this thread) about that, i wasn't discussing this. yet for some reason you keep coming back to this like it's the central point of my thread. i'd blame social welfare programs LONG before i'd blame feminists for the marriage separation by class (i admit i did do that a bit in this thread)
quote:
Your OP is clear, insofar as your use of broad labels is ever clear, that "progressivism" created a negative connotation around marriage.
when they apply the concept of "privilege", they have
if "privilege" creates a concept of positivity, i'm sure that's why we celebrate "white privilege" or "male privilege" and we aren't seeing a lot of policy and philosophy to attack either, right? since they have such a highly positive connotation and all, right?
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
Successful people tend to make better decisions. Whether that be financial, marital, whatever. Meaning they likely got their shite in order by going to school and finding a job before marrying, practiced safe sex to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and waited on the right person to marry.
Less successful people make poor decisions such as marrying young, having kids too early, being bad with money and end up never being able to further a career or education and get kids they can't afford and an instance marriage.
The problem is our Govt rewards the latter while punishing the former, so the problem grows because consequences aren't felt.
Less successful people make poor decisions such as marrying young, having kids too early, being bad with money and end up never being able to further a career or education and get kids they can't afford and an instance marriage.
The problem is our Govt rewards the latter while punishing the former, so the problem grows because consequences aren't felt.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:34 pm to CoachChappy
quote:
Excellent point! I'm glad y'all have it worked out for what is best for y'all. It still proves my point of 2 > 1. You sound like what my grandpaw would call a "good womans"
You're right for sure. 2 will always be better- no matter how they divide the load.
I don't knock women for being career minded. I walked out of a job I loved knowing that I really just wanted to be home doing home stuff. I know for a lot of women that's not enough and that's perfectly understandable. Well, I'm definitely more like the women of your grandfather's time than a modern woman. I'd fit in better in that time
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Let me be blunt: Unless "we" is a group of sociology professors, you're full of shite. If you think single parents get coddled, if you think that the esoteric concept of "nuclear family privilege" is somehow more prevalent and ingrained in our society than a thousand negative stereotypes about deadbeat dads and immature moms, I'm really at a loss as to how communication is possible, because we are not living in the same reality.
it's not that difficult to break if we stigmatize the sub-optimal behaviors and are honest about them. instead, flipping this around and calling (in this case) marriage a "privilege" confers a fatalism that just doesn't exist.
This post was edited on 6/6/17 at 5:46 pm
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:46 pm to Iosh
quote:
When a leftist calls something a "privilege" they are saying it confers advantages.
It's actually more specific in that it's an advantage that only "some" or "select" people have access to, usually an "automatic" or innate advantage. And this is why it's both negative, and why the left focuses on policy and culture that suppresses said privilege.
Hence the point that it's fairly clear the left has often attacked marriage as a beneficial institution. This all goes back to Patriarchy, Free Love, Government, not familial, structures of support, etc.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:48 pm to ThePoo
quote:
I mean the there are several instances you can look to in the operation of our federal government that actively discourage marriage and traditional families and creates incentive for straying away from this So the traditional family is being shamed for being a part of the oppression while simultaneously being financially punished by the federal government
Yep, but you are leaving out a very important component, there is also a spiritual battle against the traditional family as wel.
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:53 pm to Iosh
quote:
if you think that the esoteric concept of "nuclear family privilege" is somehow more prevalent and ingrained in our society than a thousand negative stereotypes about deadbeat dads and immature moms
the latter stopped penetrating the lower class culture some time ago
it's also across all racial groups (well, other than asians)
and that's the problem with how this whole discussion has been framed. it's clear that coddling the discussion and shifting it to a view of the privileged upper class instead of a discussion criticizing the sub-optimal decisions of the lower class, has led to this exponentially-widening economic gap.
is your argument that this framing and the accompanying policies have NOT led to an effect on the lower class and its behavioral patterns? if not, i'd love to hear your explanation for this emerging/widening gap
Posted on 6/6/17 at 5:55 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
t's actually more specific in that it's an advantage that only "some" or "select" people have access to,
everyone can get married however. not everyone chooses to
Posted on 6/6/17 at 6:00 pm to chalmetteowl
quote:
everyone can get married however. not everyone chooses to
For various reasons out of their control - hence why they don't have "access" to it.
Race, Gender, Support, Education, finances, etc. there is always a reason that "privileges" are inaccessible, regardless of actual freedom to choose.
This post was edited on 6/6/17 at 6:01 pm
Posted on 6/6/17 at 6:01 pm to LuckyTiger
quote:
I'd be dead now.
At least your kids would be rich.
You can marry more in a minute than you can make in a lifetime.
Sorry you're still poors. :(
Posted on 6/6/17 at 6:12 pm to chalmetteowl
quote:
everyone can get married however. not everyone chooses to
And there are consequences for that decision
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