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re: Let us speak truthfully, there is but one man that can save you…
Posted on 4/5/26 at 8:09 pm to JiminyCricket
Posted on 4/5/26 at 8:09 pm to JiminyCricket
If God created us the way we are, unable to resist sin, does he not bear responsibility? It's like a toy maker making a toy with a wobbly wheel, then being angry at the toy because it won't roll straight.
2
Posted on 4/5/26 at 8:13 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
If God created us the way we are, unable to resist sin, does he not bear responsibility? It's like a toy maker making a toy with a wobbly wheel, then being angry at the toy because it won't roll straight.
Do we not bear responsibility for choosing to do wrong? I know that I’ve been 100% present for every dumb and immoral thing I’ve ever done. I don’t feel like I have a case to make when I’ve willfully done things I know were wrong, God made a way for me to be made right and I would still theoretically refuse. That falls on me.
This post was edited on 4/5/26 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 4/5/26 at 8:20 pm to dickkellog
quote:2 Peter 3:4
define"soon" that would be a neat trick! i'd like to see that!
Posted on 4/5/26 at 8:27 pm to JiminyCricket
Not if God created us so that we are unable to meet his standard of righteousness. You may say, "that's what Jesus is for." But some people, maybe even most people, won't accept him. The Calvinists believe man is unable to accept Christ unless God has elected him to believe. Regardless, it seems God has created a system by which a tiny handful are saved and billions upon billions are damned. What does that make God?
I'm not really arguing with you, I'm just bringing up some of the things I've always struggled with. I really hope that if God exists, we've got it all wrong, because the God of the Bible seems really harsh and arbitrary.
I'm not really arguing with you, I'm just bringing up some of the things I've always struggled with. I really hope that if God exists, we've got it all wrong, because the God of the Bible seems really harsh and arbitrary.
Posted on 4/5/26 at 8:31 pm to Jim Rockford
I was raised in the church. I enjoy the traditions, the fellowship. I volunteer several hours a week with a faith based organization. But there are things about Christianity that have never made sense to me. I wonder how many other people would say the same thing if they were completely honest.
Posted on 4/5/26 at 9:15 pm to Jim Rockford
You are assuming that hearing the Gospel somehow makes you worse off. Christianity doesn't teach that. It teaches that more light brings more responsibility, not less mercy. (Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 11:21-24)
It's not: "Hear the Gospel --> now you're doomed if you don't agree"
It's: "God judges people justly based on the light they actually have", "No one is condemned for ignorance they couldn't avoid", "But rejecting truth carries weight"
You're not better off staying in the dark. That's like saying it's better not to diagnose a disease because then you're not accountable for treating it.
As for "you can't logically arrive at religious belief," that's a bit overstated. You may not be able to prove every theological claim like a math equation, but there are rational arguments for God, morality, and even the resurrection. Faith isn't blind. It's trust based on what you find credible. Everyone exercises that kind of trust somewhere -- it's not unique to religion.
It's not: "Hear the Gospel --> now you're doomed if you don't agree"
It's: "God judges people justly based on the light they actually have", "No one is condemned for ignorance they couldn't avoid", "But rejecting truth carries weight"
You're not better off staying in the dark. That's like saying it's better not to diagnose a disease because then you're not accountable for treating it.
As for "you can't logically arrive at religious belief," that's a bit overstated. You may not be able to prove every theological claim like a math equation, but there are rational arguments for God, morality, and even the resurrection. Faith isn't blind. It's trust based on what you find credible. Everyone exercises that kind of trust somewhere -- it's not unique to religion.
This post was edited on 4/5/26 at 9:17 pm
Posted on 4/5/26 at 9:21 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:Humanity wasn't created unable to resist sin. We were created good, with the capacity to obey or disobey. The problem entered when that freedom was used to reject God.
If God created us the way we are, unable to resist sin, does he not bear responsibility?
Adam and Eve weren't forced to sin or built to fail. They chose it and that choice had consequences that carried forward.
So, something good was made, it was deliberately misused, and now it doesn't function the way it was intended. We still have moral awareness, but we're not morally neutral. Something in us is bent. The solution isn't blaming the design. It's restoration through Jesus Christ.
Posted on 4/5/26 at 10:01 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
2 Peter 3:4
why is it so important to you that we are living in the last days? is your life so miserable that gods gonna come back and somehow make you whole?
my faith has been living in the last days for 2000 years, yours for 10 minutes.
i have no doubt that christ will come back but it's in his time and choosing.
Posted on 4/6/26 at 4:49 am to dickkellog
I did not say we were living in the last days.
Posted on 4/6/26 at 5:33 am to dickkellog
quote:
why is it so important to you that we are living in the last days?
It’s kind of a facet of the Christian faith, which every generation of Christians after the first has had to struggle with.
Posted on 4/6/26 at 5:52 am to CrystalPreserves
100%
Posted on 4/6/26 at 6:30 am to Luke
No man can save you. Jesus as a man could save no one.
Posted on 4/6/26 at 7:32 am to Luke
True. But
“Talk to God, but row away from the rocks”
“Talk to God, but row away from the rocks”
Posted on 4/6/26 at 8:20 am to JiminyCricket
Yeah, I think you have it boiled down fairly well.
It’s only questionable to be when I speak or hear of Christians who speak as though the ONLY way to heaven is through their particular faction of the Christian Faith
It’s only questionable to be when I speak or hear of Christians who speak as though the ONLY way to heaven is through their particular faction of the Christian Faith
Posted on 4/6/26 at 8:25 am to theballguy
quote:Saved from eternal damnation and suffering for rebellion against a holy and just God who created us to worship and commune with Him.
I agree with a lot of the politics from many board posters here but I still don't get the "save" thing. Why do people think they need to be saved? Saved from what?
We humans are created in the image of God with an innate desire to worship, with an innate understanding that there is objective morality, and with eternity written on our hearts.
First, we were created. If scientists have shown anything, it is that we did not come from nothing, and life cannot come from non-life. Even the simplest life is comprised of genetic information, and information always implies a mind. This mind belongs to God.
Second, we were created to worship. We make idols of all sorts of things that we devote our time, money, and resources to. We may not always bow down in prostration to our idols, but we desire to set our affections on things. We do it with sports, politics, and especially people. God created is to worship Him and gave us that desire, but sin corrupts our very being, and instead of worshipping the creator, we worship other creatures.
Third, we innately know there is objective morality, and yet that cannot exist without a standard coming to us from outside our own sense experience and minds, that is enforced by whatever source it comes from. We know this is true because we expect everyone to live by certain rules, and we get really upset when others break them at our expense. We know that stealing, rape, and murder are objectively morally “wrong”, and yet logically, they cannot be unless there is a standard that declares such things as wrong from outside the human experience. Otherwise, those are just actions of one purposeless and accidental blob of star dust towards another, without meaning or actual consequence beyond what one animal might do to another, or what a storm does to a tree. God has implanted a basic understanding of His moral law on our hearts, so we know right from wrong and we expect others to abide by an objective standard; we don’t act like all actions are equally moral based on the subjective character of the person who does them, even if we claim that morality is subjective. We just don’t live that way.
Lastly, God has placed eternity in our hearts. We long for something greater than ourselves and realize that we are not enough. We have lived with ourselves long enough to know that we are imperfect, that we are flawed and cannot always do for ourselves what we wish, and we look for something more. We look for meaning and purpose beyond ourselves. We also fear death and seek to avoid it by extending our lives as long as possible. We see death as a problem to solve, and the death of others as a moral issue to overcome. We also hope for more than this life, even if we struggle to accept that there is something more.
I could go on and on, but we are created to reflect our creator. Our creator has left His fingerprints all over the universe, and He has even interacted with it in a personal way by providing direct knowledge about His actions and reasons for doing what He has done, and what He expects of us in His revelation in what we call the Bible. In this revelation, He has declared that we belong to Him and that we were created to reflect His own glory in creation. Because of our disobedience, we are guilty of violating the purpose for which we were created, and we deserve eternal punishment for it because our offense is against an eternal God. However, God has not left us to suffer for our violations of His law, but He paid the price of justice, Himself, by sending His only Son to obey the law for us and die in our place. We can have perfect moral and eternal unity with God by accepting this gift of salvation by faith in what Jesus Christ did for us.
So turn from your sins today and accept the free gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ while you have the opportunity. Once you die, you will experience eternity. The question to answer is how you will experience it: Will you spend it paying for your rejection of your eternal creator with never-ending suffering, or will you spend it in eternal bliss and joy with your savior?
Posted on 4/6/26 at 9:42 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
I'm not really arguing with you, I'm just bringing up some of the things I've always struggled with.
No worries man. They're important questions to examine and should be wrestled with by any Christian.
quote:
Not if God created us so that we are unable to meet his standard of righteousness.
Strictly speaking from a doctrinal perspective, God did not create humanity flawed or sinful. Prior to the fall of man, mankind was free from sin and was considered blameless in the eyes of God. It was only once humanity sinned against God through disobedience that separation occurred.
Now, this still leaves the other problems you mentioned, and they’re important to address.
quote:
But some people, maybe even most people, won't accept him.
It’s true that many people won’t trust Jesus Christ, but I think it’s important to dig into the nuance of how and why they don’t accept Him. In my own experience sharing the gospel, and even looking at broader data, most people,at least in places like the U.S., have heard of Jesus. Yet many still choose not to follow Him. The question then becomes: if God has provided a genuine way to salvation through Christ, and someone hears that message but rejects it, on what basis is God responsible for that decision? At the same time, Christian theology doesn’t ignore the reality of humanity’s fallen condition. Through what is often called Original Sin, human nature is inclined toward sin. But even in that state, people still act according to their own desires. They are not coerced into rejecting God. That’s why responsibility still applies; we are not forced into unbelief; we willingly choose according to what we love and value.
quote:
The Calvinists believe man is unable to accept Christ unless God has elected him to believe.
It’s true that Calvinists affirm ideas like total depravity and irresistible grace, but it’s important to remember that not all Christians hold that view. Personally, I struggle with the idea that grace is irresistible for some and not others, especially in light of passages like John 6:29, which says that the work God requires is to believe in the one He has sent. Scripture clearly speaks about election, but that doesn’t necessarily mean human choice is eliminated.
If God is truly omniscient, then yes, He would know who will be saved before the foundation of the world. But it’s also true that, as time-bound beings, we make real choices and are responsible for them. Those two truths don’t have to be mutually exclusive. This is where the tension comes in, and it’s easy to turn it into a false dilemma: either humans have full ability and God is just, or humans lack ability and God is unjust. But Christian theology has historically held that both divine sovereignty and human responsibility are real, even if we don’t fully understand how they fit together.
quote:
Regardless, it seems God has created a system by which a tiny handful are saved and billions upon billions are damned. What does that make God?
When it comes to justice, God cannot simply ignore sin. If He did, justice would lose its meaning and moral distinctions would ultimately collapse. We already recognize in human systems that a judge who refuses to hold wrongdoing accountable is not good. In a similar way, a perfectly righteous God must deal with sin justly. God has also made a way for sin to be dealt with through Jesus Christ. The offer of grace is real. So the situation isn’t simply that people are condemned, it’s that a way of rescue has been provided, and people respond to that offer in different ways.
At the end of the day, we don’t usually blame the one who provides a genuine solution when it’s refused. And even if human nature is fallen, people still act according to their desires, not by coercion. That’s why Christian theology maintains both that we are accountable for our actions and that God is just in His judgment.
I hope you continue to dig in to these big questions as I do agree they're important to chew on. I hope some of this was helpful.
Posted on 4/6/26 at 9:53 am to Champagne
Did Jesus give Trump the strength, love and power to frick a slutty pornstar while he was married?
Posted on 4/6/26 at 10:02 am to SlidellCajun
quote:
Yeah, I think you have it boiled down fairly well.
It’s only questionable to be when I speak or hear of Christians who speak as though the ONLY way to heaven is through their particular faction of the Christian Faith
Thanks for the clarification. I’ll try to address these points one by one.
According to Christian doctrine, even in the Old Testament, salvation occurred by faith. Many people assume it came through keeping the law, but Scripture shows that no one was able to fully keep it. For example, Abraham is described in Genesis 15:6 as being counted righteous because of his belief. The sacrificial system was ultimately pointing forward to the coming Messiah, who would deal with sin fully and finally. So even before Jesus Christ came, salvation was based on faith rather than personal goodness.
As for those who have never heard the gospel, this is something I wrestled with for a long time as well. One thing that helped me was realizing that Scripture shows God revealing Himself in multiple ways. This includes dreams and visions, but also what’s often called general revelation; through creation and human consciousness, as described in passages like Psalm 19.
The idea is that God is not limited in how He reaches people. And if He is truly just and omniscient, then we can trust that He judges people righteously, not unfairly. At the same time, Christianity still holds that salvation is ultimately made possible through Jesus Christ, even if someone doesn’t fully understand that in the same way we do now.
So while we may not know exactly how every individual case works, the consistent picture in Scripture is that God is both just and active in revealing Himself, and that no one is overlooked or judged unfairly
Posted on 4/6/26 at 10:06 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Saved from eternal damnation and suffering for rebellion against a holy and just God who created us to worship and commune with Him.
Why would a benevolent God create us and have us born into a world where we are already damned from birth before ever opening our eyes?
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