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Started By
Message
re: Income Tax vs Flat/Sales Tax. Which is Better?
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:05 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:05 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Consumption tax.
Yes
But the evil bastards will do both
2
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:07 pm to OU Guy
quote:
consumption tax
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:10 pm to OU Guy
Reduce the size of government and depend on tariffs like the good old days when there was no income tax.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:11 pm to Rohan Gravy
quote:
Yes
But the evil bastards will do both
Statutorily, this is impossible due to the structure of the bill. The 16th Amendment MUST be repealed for the NRST to go into effect.
On a rhetorical basis, "they'll do both!" is about as productive as the "Nothing will happen" crowd for other political matters. The responsibility of we the people to send representatives to Washington to enact something like this bill also carries with it our ability to hold the elected responsible for matters such as the tax rate itself under the NRST bill, as well as elimination of state income taxes and implementation of similar consumption tax-based solutions at home.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:11 pm to Rohan Gravy
quote:
But the evil bastards will do both
Yeah, I've had this conversation with several leftists. They want both.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:13 pm to RTN
quote:
why not just make income tax flat instead of progressive. Then everyone pays the same rate.
Because not everyone pays income tax.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:13 pm to OU Guy
I want a flat sales tax with exemptions for those over 70 and the handicapped. This will lower overall income tax for those paying now and will now force those who don't contribute to pay their share.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:14 pm to Chrome
quote:
a flat sales tax with exemptions
No exemptions. They're unnecessary with the prebate model established in the FairTax.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:15 pm to VoxDawg
Thanks for the post and fair tax link. Good stuff!
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:16 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Consumption tax.
Everyone pays. Rewards those that save.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:19 pm to OU Guy
quote:
Thanks for the post and fair tax link. Good stuff!
Absolutely! This is one of the handful of political matters that I'm absolutely passionate about.
Next time you're at Goodwill, check for The FairTax Book by Neal Boortz and (former) Congressman John Linder. It's 20 years old, but still the single best resource for educating people about the bill. Most opponents can't debate the substance of the plan itself without deliberately misrepresenting the details ("What if they don't repeal the income tax?", etc).
The other major facet that folks don't think about is that you take home your entire paycheck with no withholding. That alone would outstrip many people's concerns about paying 1% more at the register than they currently do with the baked in corporate income taxes on retail goods they buy.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:21 pm to Hopeful Doc
quote:
The argument is that this tax disproportionately affects those with low income, and it is fairly undeniably true that this is the case (13% of 10,000 is a lot harder to let go of than 13% of $100,000 and is a lot harder to let go of than 13% of $1,000,000 in terms of making ends meet and pretty much any conceivable quality of life metric when we look at how the current system impacts those in the lower income ranges)).
From the link in an earlier post of mine:
quote:
Get a Tax Refund in Advance on Purchases of Basic Necessities
The FairTax provides a progressive program called a prebate. This gives every legal resident household an “advance refund” at the beginning of each month so that purchases made up to the poverty level are tax-free. The prebate prevents an unfair burden on low-income families. Learn more.
This post was edited on 1/19/23 at 1:22 pm
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:39 pm to OU Guy
quote:
So in reality the lower income brackets pay more tax than the rich
I’ll have to, respectfully, disagree. The Top 1% is made up of 1.4MM tax returns. Now, if your argument is that at some decimal of the upper tier of that that there are some folks capable of taking losses to not pay taxes, sure. But in no way, shape, or form is there any data to support that ”lower brackets” are paying more than the “rich.”
Maybe you could expand your argument so I could understand what you’re saying?
A simple breakdown (and slight reinterpretation) of the table in the link:
Top 1% pay 40.1% of all income taxes collected
Top 5%- 60.3% (so from outside of the 1 through the 5th represent 20.2%)
Top 10%- 71.4% (so from anyone outside the 5th to the 10th inclusive would be 11.1%)
Top 25% 87.0% (so from just outside the 1 to the 25 is paying 16% of all the taxes in the country. This number does represent a higher percentage of all taxes paid, but it also represents 3x the number of returns)
Top 50% 97.1% (19.5% (double the number of returns from the last group)
Bottom 50%- 2.9%
Posted on 1/19/23 at 2:12 pm to OU Guy
Consumption is the lesser evil, because it can potentially be opted out from.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 2:21 pm to OU Guy
Consumption tax and why build in rules at all? This is how the tax code got fricked.
Spend $1 pay 20 cents.
Spend $1 pay 20 cents.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 2:23 pm to OU Guy
quote:
Which is Better?
For who?
The poor will pay more tax and the rich will pay less tax under such a system.
If you start saying, well exempt groceries, exempt medicine, etc, you are going to start again with the complexities the current system has.
Then, who is going to collect this tax? More importantly, who is going to audit to make sure the proper amount is being collected? The more exemptions... the more complex to audit!
Any of you been through a state or local sales tax audit? IRS income tax audits are child's play compared to an IRS income tax audit.
The fact is this... no matter what kind of tax you have, you will need an agency to collect it and enforce it. You can give it a different name if you like, but it will still be there.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 2:24 pm to VoxDawg
quote:
the income tax was such an onerous concept, it took a Constitutional amendment just to LEGALIZE it.
And if you will take a moment to go back and see HOW it was ratified, you will see that the Constitution was amended in a Constitutionally unauthorized (and underhanded) manner.
Those wanting a federal income tax couldn't get the required votes to amend the Constitution, so they presented it to various states who had voted against the amendment and changed the verbiage in each instance in order to secure the votes of those states. The verbiage did NOT match that of the amendment as it was passed, and is therefore legally invalid. However, just as pretty much everything else when it comes to seizing power, the federal government cares little for the letter of the law unless it benefits them directly.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 2:27 pm to RTN
quote:
Instead of a consumption tax, why not just make income tax flat
Because the word ‘income’ isn’t defined the same for everyone.
For people with businesses, investments, 501c’s, etc. etc., income is a nebulous term that can be fricked around with to skate taxes.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 2:29 pm to OU Guy
Flat tax is better
1. Everyone pays so everyone cares about the tax rate. Now the 55%?who don’t pay taxes don’t care at all about the tax rate.
2. No exemptions. Now big companies pay millions to tax attorneys to avoid paying by taxes.
3. People feel the taxes they pay. When taxes are taken out of your check you don’t feel it as much as when you have to pay the taxes at every purchase.
1. Everyone pays so everyone cares about the tax rate. Now the 55%?who don’t pay taxes don’t care at all about the tax rate.
2. No exemptions. Now big companies pay millions to tax attorneys to avoid paying by taxes.
3. People feel the taxes they pay. When taxes are taken out of your check you don’t feel it as much as when you have to pay the taxes at every purchase.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 2:34 pm to bird35
quote:
When taxes are taken out of your check you don’t feel it as much as when you have to pay the taxes at every purchase.
Only there would be zero appreciable effect by paying a NRST at the point of sale because it would simply replace embedded corporate income taxes that are already part of the retail price of any consumer good.
Well, you'd be buying it with your WHOLE paycheck, not what you're allowed to keep after Uncle Sam gets prima nocta with your earnings.
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