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re: If someone tells you they’re a Libertarian

Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:06 pm to
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
70465 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:06 pm to
Libertarians don’t believe in zoning, so, yeah, go ahead with your strip club. The free market and cancel culture will decide whether that’s a good idea or not.

Because we do have a parks system, and we do have a government we task with managing that park, they would be allowed to decide if orgies are permitted or not. My guess is they would say no, but you never know until you ask. If they say no, then they have the right to expel you from their property if you choose to violate that rule.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 4:10 pm
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
28133 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:07 pm to
quote:

Libertarians want less government.


Correct, but the government they want is going to restrict freedoms based on moral values. See my first response in this thread; I have zero problems with libertarians who say they want fewer restrictions. It's the "those guys want to legislate morality and we don't" stuff that I think is worth correcting. This is an analog issue, not a digital one.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
70465 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:09 pm to
What “morality” do libertarians want to legislate that doesn’t involve conduct where one person takes rights from another person by hook or by crook?
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
28133 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:10 pm to
quote:

Because we do have a parks system, and we do have a government we task with managing that park, they would be allowed to decide if orgies are permitted or not.


Way to avoid answering the question.

But since you're ok with that logic, because we do have zoning and permits, and we do have a government that we task with managing zoning and permits, they would be allowed to decide if liquor stores are permitted or not. No problem, right?
Posted by Friar Tuck
Planet Earth
Member since Nov 2016
691 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:11 pm to
I don’t vote Libertarian for that very reason, but I do like their position of more freedom and less government. Government doesn’t really do anything very efficiently or well. I believe in freedom to do as you please up to the point that it hurts someone else or society in general. I think the 10 Commandments and the Constitution covers most of the laws we need.
Posted by deltaland
Member since Mar 2011
102711 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:12 pm to
Purists libertarians are idiots because while I agree with them in principle the application of their ideas isn’t attainable short of armed revolution.

I prefer to focus on issues we might can actually change such as reducing the surveillance state, cutting spending, more freedom on social issues.

Non interventionist foreign policy and truly unregulated free market capitalism just isn’t going to happen even though I wish it could. I’m not going to be like the purists who refuse to support anyone unless they’re true believers. Libertarians will never gain national office in any meaningful way being like that. Our system requires compromise
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
28133 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:16 pm to
quote:

What “morality” do libertarians want to legislate that doesn’t involve conduct where one person takes rights from another person by hook or by crook?


How do you decide what rights they have? In some cultures women don't have equal standing with men. It wasn't too long ago that described our culture. What changed? And when it changed, what would have been your response to people who didn't agree with the new values our society was imposing on them? At one point a private hotel owner could rent or not rent a room for any reason he wanted. That right was taken from hotel owners, because society decided that people had other rights that overrode his rights. If you drill down and figure out why we think people have certain rights and why they don't have other rights, you're going to hit the same bedrock: values.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
70465 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:17 pm to
What are your parameters? Zoning laws exist, but libertarians don’t believe they should. Public Schools exist, but libertarians often don’t believe they should. Public parks exist though many libertarians don’t agree that they should.

I gave you your answer if libertarians had their way, and what the answer is presently. Libertarians believe zoning laws are unconstitutional, as they were for the first 150 years or so of American history. However, that is no longer the case. Libertarians would like to revert back to that state, but under the given laws, obviously, governments have power to regulate things that libertarians believe they shouldn’t. What is your “gotcha” here? Are you asking whether libertarians say you should defy the law that does exist? Libertarians argue the law shouldn’t exist.

There is what is, and what should be under a given philosophy. Libertarianism says that the world that “should be” wouldn’t have liquor licenses, zoning, public schools, or public parks.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 4:20 pm
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
70465 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:18 pm to
In a libertarian society, all people capable of consent have the same rights. Those rights end where another’s begins. The government exists to secure those rights and provide a venue where disputes can be settled (tort system). People can do whatever they want in which all effected parties consent and are capable of consent. Instances where consent is violated or rights are deprived without consent are criminalized or remedied in tort.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 4:25 pm
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138897 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:22 pm to
quote:

When it comes nut cutting time, republicans often find the libertarian knife in their back.
I'm not sure what nuts you're referring to, but as the GOP tends to less government, less regulations, libertarians tend republican.

But I've certainly voted Dem at times.
I've not had reasonable options at the national level. For example, given the chance, I'd have voted for Sam Nunn or Richard Shelby (when he was a democrat) without reservation. I'd not vote for a single democrat currently in Congress (House or Senate) as they are 100% disgusting, compromised rubberstamps for socialists.
Posted by troyt37
Member since Mar 2008
14682 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:26 pm to
quote:

I'm not sure what nuts you're referring to, but as the GOP tends to less government, less regulations, libertarians tend republican.


There have been many instances over the years. The most recent that comes to mind is Rand Paul not supporting the border wall. Sure, sure, in a perfect libertarian world there would be no public money to entice the criminal illegals, but that's just not reality. The next best thing is a physical barrier between the two countries. Rand shite on it.
Posted by MrFreakinMiyagi
Reseda
Member since Feb 2007
19964 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:31 pm to
I offer my hand

If they know the secret handshake, then they don’t get karate’d
Posted by westide
Bamala
Member since Sep 2014
2882 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:33 pm to
If you are on a date and a female tells you they are a libertarian or from Mississippi, there is a good chance you will get laid.
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
28133 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:35 pm to
quote:

In a libertarian society, all people capable of consent have the same rights.


Come on, even ignoring your "capable of consent" caveat that's pamphlet slogan garbage. There's never going to be a conflict between my rights and my neighbor's rights? Where are these rights spelled out and who decides what they are? You're going to have a government, and they're going to make rules, and people who are unhappy with the rules are going to have the values of the majority forced on them. Exactly how it happens now and exactly how it's always happened in every civilization.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
70465 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:37 pm to
They’re decided in tort. Your rights are what you will defend. Think offensive sounds, smells, etc. Does your neighbor’s use of his property diminish your ability to enjoy your property? Can you quantity the amount by which your enjoyment is diminished?
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138897 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:37 pm to
quote:

The most recent that comes to mind is Rand Paul not supporting the border wall.
You may not be aware as to why he didn't support it. I suspect you'll find that he thinks the Executive Branch "working with a pen and a phone" is no more Constitutionally palatable with Trump than with Obama.

For example, would you support planting bullshite false evidence on Schiff if you could use it to jail him? Some would. I wouldn't. Rand wouldn't.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
70465 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:39 pm to
This. The right thing done the wrong way is still the wrong thing. Why? Because it opens the door for the wrong things to be done the wrong way with no way to stop them.

The value of pragmatism vs staying true to one’s principles is often a difficult thing to weigh in a given situation. Sometimes it is best not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but if the means don’t justify the end, then the end doesn’t justify the means.

A libertarian would not authorize use of power it wouldn’t want usable against them. If you wouldn’t want your worst enemy in government to be allowed to do something, you probably shouldn’t be trusted with the power to do that something either.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 4:43 pm
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138897 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:45 pm to
quote:

Because it opens the door for the wrong things to be done the wrong way with no way to stop them.

There is always a way, but eventually there is a better way.

Be best!



Yes....shameless
Posted by DeathToTheDemiurge
Vestavia Hills, AL
Member since May 2020
133 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:56 pm to
I would assume they are very intellectual having read Mises, Rothbard, Friedman, Hayek, Hoppe, Tom Woods, Lew Rockwell, Jeff Diest, listened to Dave Smith's, Lions of Liberty's, Bob Woods, Freeman Behind the Wall, Propaganda Report, Scott Horton, Anarchcast, and Ron Paul's podcasts. An intellectual Mike Tyson for sure.
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
120445 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 5:28 pm to
quote:

they are libertarians because they are Marxists who support gay marriage so that makes them libertarian.


Marxists are even bigger enemies to libertarians than they are to conservatives. Not going along with any of their bullshite. Marxists want to take my shite and tell me how to live my life. frick that noise. It’s what makes Trump appealing is he does not give two fricks what I do with my life.
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