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re: How Free Trade Took Down the American Middle Class
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:23 pm to BCreed1
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:23 pm to BCreed1
Let's ask the women how much.easier life is now...their grandmother's sat at home all day and played with the tots...They work their asses off and pay $1500 a month for daycare.
This post was edited on 3/23/25 at 10:26 pm
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Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:27 pm to TerryDawg03
quote:
But the trades are coming back bigly. For whatever offloading our country has done in manufacturing, the trades could make up ground here in the next few years.
Been hearing this for 30 years now.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:27 pm to David_DJS
quote:
I haven't seen free trade being discussed much the last few pages of this thread.
The whole context is about the effects of free trade. But that response was not to you anyway.
quote:
I'm arguing against the notion that Americans don't have it really, really well today, and we're all better off than Americans were 75 years ago.
I'm arguing that we would still have what we do today minus the free trade.
So as far as tech and modernized things, it was coming one way or the other. I prefer the other rather than free trade.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:32 pm to BCreed1
Housing has gone up in large part due to supply constraints due to zoning restrictions, especially in larger markets. If anything, free trade reduces housing costs. Imagine a new home that had to be built entirely with US tools, materials, and labor. It would be even more expensive. I get the idea that (even accounting for the significantly larger average home) the income/home value ratio has gotten out of whack, but this is not due to free trade.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:37 pm to N.O. via West-Cal
Zoning’s a convenient scapegoat, but it’s not the whole story—housing costs exploded because wages stagnated while investors and speculators turned homes into poker chips. Free trade? It’s not saving us—it’s flooding the market with cheap imports that gutted manufacturing jobs, slashing the earning power needed to buy that ‘bigger home’ in the first place. A U.S.-only built house might cost more, sure, but at least the workers could afford it back when labor had value. The income-to-home-value mess isn’t just supply; it’s a middle class squeezed by globalism’s race to the bottom.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:40 pm to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
Housing has gone up in large part due to supply constraints due to zoning restrictions, especially in larger markets. If anything, free trade reduces housing costs.
No it doesn't.
quote:
Imagine a new home that had to be built entirely with US tools, materials, and labor.
You mean like in the 1950s? I can give you the data on that too. we will go mid 50s.... 1955. Average family income $4,400 per year. Average cost of a 3 bedroom house $7,900, less than 2x a families income. How many foreign tools where used in 1955? How much foreign materials? Labor... LOL. Come on
It is no where near that now.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:40 pm to BCreed1
quote:Unlike a couple of others in this thread, I actually have a significant problem with how free trade has been executed in the past 4 decades or so. VERY significant.
Oh you are one of those that seems to think that we could not have reached this point in tech without FREE TRADE!
I just don't like bullshite arguments such as the ones in this thread. They don't really help.
Beyond that, the rest of your response here was just silly and missed the point entirely. Also, WIKI apparently disagrees with most ofher sources on W&D numbers. 70% had washers. NOT Dryers.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:45 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:They in fact, ARE LIGHT YEARS BETTER
Your argument is homes and cars are so much better now that they are worth two people working full time rather than one.
"Worth or value" are things determined by the buyer, not me or you.
quote:Some, in fact, the overwhelming majority, would argue that tech has improved quality of life. I can certainly see MANY areas where that isn't the case. But, it's self evident that our cars are safer, our homes have far more conveniences, our LIVES have far more conveniences. I mean shite. When I went out on a Saturday as a yound adult, if you needed me in an emegency, you were shite out of luck. Leave a message on my answering machine!
The problem with that argument is it wasn't a binary choice. We didn't have to chose technology over quality of life.
Don't get me wrong. I can happily write chapter and verse on how these niceties have also fricked up our lives and society. But, that's a different discussion.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:45 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
Beyond that, the rest of your response here was just silly and missed the point entirely.
No I got your point. It was to say that the cost of a home included all the things you listed.
They do not.
My family does very extensive work in this field. From General Contractors to master electricians to Architecture.
The price per sqft does NOT include your cell phone. ETC
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:46 pm to BCreed1
quote:
The share of adults who reside in middle-class households fell from 61% in 1971 to 50% in 2021, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data. However, the statistics also show that the upper end of income families increased from 14-21% during the same period; but the lower income strata of the population increased from 25-29%.
The topic is middle class. So again, gov forced access to be granted to lower income. It's what led us to 2008. Barney Franks is famous for saying he wanted more of it and "let's roll the dice again".
You will get no argument from me regarding how the government has failed the middle class.
This thread just ain't a great job of it.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:49 pm to BCreed1
quote:Look. The 50s were awesome in many ways but let's not lose sight of the fact that this is in large part due to the fact that almost all of our worldwide competition had just been blown up the prior decade. We the equivalent of the only store on main street that didn't get destroyed by the tornado. OF COURSE we were kicking arse!!
You mean like in the 1950s? I can give you the data on that too. we will go mid 50s.... 1955. Average family income $4,400 per year. Average cost of a 3 bedroom house $7,900, less than 2x a families income. How many foreign tools where used in 1955? How much foreign materials? Labor... LOL. Come on
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:51 pm to BCreed1
quote:See, you missed it.
No I got your point. It was to say that the cost of a home included all the things you listed.
They do not.
The POINT was, today, people spend money on, and have access to, a BUNCH OF shite they weren't even spending money on in 1970...........and they are STILL spending more on homes too!
People's lives had a shite ton more STUFF in them than anyone in 1970 could even dream of. AND STILL...............need I repeat myself?
ACTUAL REALITY is in direct conflcit with your thesis.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:51 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
You will get no argument from me regarding how the government has failed the middle class.
Free Trade has failed the middle class. Gov officials got the bucks from those that benefited from the "backing". Example.. Paul Ryan. He voted against what the people demanded due to the Koch Brothers and corps backing him. He knew he was going to be canned by the people and retired.
All free trade does is to redistribute wealth to poor nations at the expense of Americans.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:56 pm to BCreed1
quote:I should have been more clear. The government has failed the middle class on free trade. Mainly because, we've never REALLY had free trade.
You will get no argument from me regarding how the government has failed the middle class.
Free Trade has failed the middle class.
It's not "free" if we're the only ones doing it! LOL
quote:
All free trade does is to redistribute wealth to poor nations at the expense of Americans.
Generally speaking, I'm in the Friedman school on this but most people grossly misinterpet.
I used an example the other day.
I'm against using violence to solve personal problems. But, if you punch me in the face, I'm going to kick your arse. This does NOT change that I'm against using violence to solve personal problem, it just means I'm not gonna unilaterally disarm.
I happen to love the reallacoation of resources and labor that free trade CAN bring. HOWEVER, I think doing it blindly and acting like everyone is playing on anything NEAR the same field is stupid. It's the equivalent of holding to the "no violence" thing while everyone punches you.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 11:00 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
Then we agree!
Posted on 3/24/25 at 6:25 am to dek81572
I grew up in the 80s-90s. Where I grew up there were 100s of men who left for a week or 2 or a time to work offshore in the oil and gas industry. That industry is now dead. Those were really good high paying jobs. They also gave young men out of high school or college a great place to start their careers
Posted on 3/24/25 at 6:34 am to RiverCityTider
Dang bro hit the nail on the head great post
Posted on 3/24/25 at 6:45 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Yeah, cars are shinier
Note, I said they were unreliable. I'm not talking about tech in cars. I'm talking about durability. Back in the day, making it to 100k was the exception, not the rule. Now, even cars from crappy manufacturers are expected to hit 100k.
quote:
You guys are not taking this seriously. It's shallow to muse over life without your Xbox when the issue for many is where to rest their head.
This is where I draw the line. I'll not argue with children.
Well you're making shite up now to justify you stomping out of the thread.
Posted on 3/24/25 at 6:48 am to BCreed1
quote:
We would have had this tech without free trade.
quote:
Oh you are one of those that seems to think that we could not have reached this point in tech without FREE TRADE!
HORSE SHITE!
Where do you think the savings from the cheaper goods are spent? That delta is what funds higher-level economic activity.
Posted on 3/24/25 at 6:50 am to BCreed1
quote:
The share of adults who reside in middle-class households fell from 61% in 1971 to 50% in 2021, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data. However, the statistics also show that the upper end of income families increased from 14-21% during the same period; but the lower income strata of the population increased from 25-29%.
What are the definitions of these classes?
What is the source of this purported data?
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