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re: How Free Trade Took Down the American Middle Class
Posted on 3/23/25 at 9:53 pm to David_DJS
Posted on 3/23/25 at 9:53 pm to David_DJS
Gadgets and gizmos? Who gives a damn when Mom’s slaving 10 hours a day just to keep the lights on, instead of raising the kids and keeping the family whole like in 1950? His ‘well-being’ is a distraction—tech’s nice, but it doesn’t change the fact that the middle class is bleeding out, dual incomes are a necessity, and family life’s been gutted. Compare screen time to a stable home—1950 wins, hands down.
2
Posted on 3/23/25 at 9:53 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
ou can't compare prices/costs of things where the only similarity is the name.
Exactly. It's called value-in-use and it makes the comparison - "X cost $1 in 1950 and now it's $10 but incomes have only doubled" - pretty much useless unless you're talking about the affordability of a basic commodity.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 9:54 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
The same goes for cars. I mean, I'm guessing Ford could STILL produce one cheap mother fricking car if it didn't have airbags, anti-lock breaks, seat belts, crumple zone, breakaway engines, modern paint, modern rusk protection, low emissions and on and on. I'll bet a perfect production model of a 1972 Ford would be the cheapest car on the market BY FAR!
Don't forget that cars were unreliable shite boxes compared to todays cars. Some of the increased up front cost goes there
Posted on 3/23/25 at 9:57 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
Gadgets and gizmos? Who gives a damn when Mom’s slaving 10 hours a day just to keep the lights on, instead of raising the kids and keeping the family whole like in 1950? His ‘well-being’ is a distraction—tech’s nice, but it doesn’t change the fact that the middle class is bleeding out, dual incomes are a necessity, and family life’s been gutted. Compare screen time to a stable home—1950 wins, hands down.
You're highlighting the "plight" of choices and you're ignoring some basic facts.
One reason home ownership in 1950, with those super duper 1000 ft2 homes, was substantially lower than it is during today's tough times is it f'n took a shite ton more of a family's income to eat.
It is silly to argue that the economic life of Americans hasn't gotten a ton better over the last 75 years.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 9:58 pm to David_DJS
quote:
Exactly. What does that tell you in terms of economics?
The federal gov made it easier to own a home. The Feds went to a 2% rate... where as my father had to pay 11%. 18.63% in October 1981.
Access to more credit.
You did see the jump of 10% from 1940s to 55% in the 1950s. It took 75 year to add another 10%
This post was edited on 3/23/25 at 10:00 pm
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:01 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:You can be dismissive all you want but the reality is, it goes FAR beyond just gadgets and gizmos.and you either know it but just don't want to concede a point or, you're in need of better research.
Gadgets and gizmos?
Now look. I happen to think that we have done damage with our approach to free trade. If I could wave a wand there would be 100% free trade but that would be 100% free trade with ALL nations playing fair. Alas, we all know that ain't happening. So, there's a good discussion to be had about using non free trade tactics to try and force other nations to heel.
But this whole, "Oh, in 1970, you could live better than now on an assembly line salary" is complete happy hogwash bullshite.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:04 pm to David_DJS
quote:
One reason home ownership in 1950, with those super duper 1000 ft2 homes, was substantially lower than it is during today's tough times is it f'n took a shite ton more of a family's income to eat.
This is why I tell people. Stop cherry picking stats and just ask yourself. If it's soooooo much worse today, what's driving buys to buy ever more expensive homes and do so at a HIGHER RATE than decades ago?
If your economic theory is being completely overcome by ACTUAL BEHAVIOR, you need to re-examine your economic theory.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:04 pm to SlowFlowPro
Yeah, cars are shinier and homes have Wi-Fi—big whoop. That ‘quality of life’ pitch falls flat when you can’t even afford the keys to either. I’d take a 1950 brick house with a window fan and a clunky Ford Fairlane that I own over sleeping on the street or riding a bus with strung-out junkies any day. Purchasing power’s not just numbers—it’s the difference between a stable life and scraping by. Tech’s a consolation prize when you’re priced out of the basics.
You guys are not taking this seriously. It's shallow to muse over life without your Xbox when the issue for many is where to rest their head.
This is where I draw the line. I'll not argue with children.
You guys are not taking this seriously. It's shallow to muse over life without your Xbox when the issue for many is where to rest their head.
This is where I draw the line. I'll not argue with children.
This post was edited on 3/23/25 at 10:07 pm
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:04 pm to BCreed1
quote:
The federal gov made it easier to own a home. The Feds went to a 2% rate... where as my father had to pay 11%. 18.63% in October 1981.
Access to more credit.
The home ownership rate was higher than 1970 even BEFORE the rate crashes.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:07 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:Except, actual reality proves this to be false. Quite obviously, people CAN afford to.
Yeah, cars are shinier and homes have Wi-Fi—big whoop. That ‘quality of life’ pitch falls flat when you can’t even afford the keys to either
quote:Good for you.
I’d take a 1950 brick house with a window fan and a clunky Ford Fairlane that I own over sleeping on the street or riding a bus with strung-out junkies any day.
The PEOPLE, thru their ACTIONS, flagrantly disagree with you.
quote:LOL
This is where I draw the line. I'll not argue with children.
You're the one arguing 100% based on emotions while disregarding ACTUAL ECONOMIC ACTIVITY, ACTUAL FACTS, and LEGITIMATE arguments.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:09 pm to RiverCityTider
Free trade and LBJ wrecked this country.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:12 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
Less than half of Americans had a clothes dryer.
By the late 1970s, over 70 percent of U.S. households were equipped with washers and dryers.
LINK
quote:
That house? Had vinyl flooring or cheap carpet. No granite counters ANYWHERE.
You are grasping.
quote:
There was no computer in the house.
Doesn't factor into the cost of a home.
quote:
No cell phones
Does not factor into the cost of a home.
quote:
The cars? SUBSTANTIALLY less safe with basically NONE of the current safety features.
Doesn't effect ownership of cars.
quote:
Almost zero microwave ovens.
Has nothing to do with the price of a home.
quote:
I could go on and on.
And it would all be the same. Does not factor into the cost of the home.
quote:
The FACT...........and this is a FACT...........is..............if I took your typical person in the 25th percentile today...............moved them with a time machine to 1970 and placed them in the 75th percentile................then came back 6 months later and offerred them to return...............they'd fricking stampede me to death in their rush to get back.
Look, there were some great things about the 70s but you can have a 70s lifestyle TODAY VERY frickING CHEAP.
NOBODY WANTS THAT!.................NOBODY!
Oh you are one of those that seems to think that we could not have reached this point in tech without FREE TRADE!
HORSE SHITE!
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:12 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
Yeah, cars are shinier and homes have Wi-Fi—big whoop. That ‘quality of life’ pitch falls flat when you can’t even afford the keys to either. I’d take a 1950 brick house with a window fan and a clunky Ford Fairlane that I own over sleeping on the street or riding a bus with strung-out junkies any day. Purchasing power’s not just numbers—it’s the difference between a stable life and scraping by. Tech’s a consolation prize when you’re priced out of the basics.
You guys are not taking this seriously. It's shallow to muse over life I'm without you Xbox when the issue for many is where to rest their head.
This is where I draw the line. I'll not argue with children.
There's nothing "adult" about arguing ignorant positions, and it's ignorant AF to suggest that life in 2025 isn't a shite ton better and easier than it was in 1950. Not that life is easy, (thank God) you still have to do the right things and work hard but in comparison, we have it better/easier than Americans did in 1950. And Americans in 1950 had it better/easier than Americans in 1900 did.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:13 pm to David_DJS
quote:
You seriously believe the general well-being (or economic well-being) of the average American was better in 1950 than it is today? JFC - did the breathtaking technological developments of the last 75 years just pass today's population by?
Sir, that has nothing to do with the issue. We would have had this tech without free trade. And our pay would have been better vs cost.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:14 pm to BCreed1
quote:
Oh you are one of those that seems to think that we could not have reached this point in tech without FREE TRADE!
I haven't seen free trade being discussed much the last few pages of this thread. I certainly am not arguing in support of free trade. I'm arguing against the notion that Americans don't have it really, really well today, and we're all better off than Americans were 75 years ago. That's different than an argument in support of free trade as it has been practiced the last 35 years.
This post was edited on 3/23/25 at 10:16 pm
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:15 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
I advise you to read the original post and research the source material and then get back to me.
Your argument is homes and cars are so much better now that they are worth two people working full time rather than one.
The problem with that argument is it wasn't a binary choice. We didn't have to chose technology over quality of life.
Hello! You there in left field. Come back and let's discuss reality.
Your argument is homes and cars are so much better now that they are worth two people working full time rather than one.
The problem with that argument is it wasn't a binary choice. We didn't have to chose technology over quality of life.
Hello! You there in left field. Come back and let's discuss reality.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:17 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
We didn't have to chose technology over quality of life.
Youre going to hate automation and AI.
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:17 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
Your argument is homes and cars are so much better now that they are worth two people working full time rather than one.
The problem with that argument is it wasn't a binary choice. We didn't have to chose technology over quality of life.
Hello! You there in left field. Come back and let's discuss reality.
You are on to something here. Money no longer goes as far as it once did.
Think about $5k in 1995. The 2025 equivalent gets you NOTHING.
This post was edited on 3/23/25 at 10:19 pm
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:18 pm to David_DJS
quote:
One reason home ownership in 1950, with those super duper 1000 ft2 homes, was substantially lower than it is during today's tough times is it f'n took a shite ton more of a family's income to eat.
What the frick?
Posted on 3/23/25 at 10:22 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
The share of adults who reside in middle-class households fell from 61% in 1971 to 50% in 2021, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data. However, the statistics also show that the upper end of income families increased from 14-21% during the same period; but the lower income strata of the population increased from 25-29%.
The topic is middle class. So again, gov forced access to be granted to lower income. It's what led us to 2008. Barney Franks is famous for saying he wanted more of it and "let's roll the dice again".
The topic is middle class. So again, gov forced access to be granted to lower income. It's what led us to 2008. Barney Franks is famous for saying he wanted more of it and "let's roll the dice again".
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