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re: Here’s my problem with the idea of the civil war was fought over slavery
Posted on 6/17/20 at 8:45 am to Damone
Posted on 6/17/20 at 8:45 am to Damone
quote:
People still cling to the fantasy that the Civil War wasn’t about slavery?
So does the fact that Lincoln said on 7/4/1861 "My policy sought only to collect the Revenue,( a 40 percent federal sales tax on imports to Southern States under the Morrill Tariff Act of 1861).
Or
"I have no purpose, directly or in-directly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so," Lincoln said it his first inaugural on March 4 of the same year
Or
Lincoln did not claim slavery was a reason even in his Emancipation Proclamations on Sept. 22, 1862, and Jan. 1, 1863. Moreover, Lincoln's proclamations exempted a million slaves under his control from being freed (including General U.S. Grant's four slaves) and offered the South three months to return to the Union (pay 40 percent sales tax) and keep their slaves. None did. Lincoln affirmed his only reason for issuing was: "as a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said (tax) rebellion.
Or
On Dec. 25, 1860, South Carolina declared unfair taxes to be a cause of secession: "The people of the Southern States are not only taxed for the benefit of the Northern States, but after the taxes are collected, three-fourths (75%) of them are expended at the North (to subsidize Wall Street industries that elected Lincoln)." (Paragraphs 5-8)
Was slavery involved, yes, but it was not the only reason and not even the overriding issue, even to Lincoln.
4
Posted on 6/17/20 at 8:52 am to BamaMamaof2
quote:
In words of the great Lewis Grizzard
A great writer. And funny.
RIP Lewis and 'Catfish' (his beloved dog).
This post was edited on 6/17/20 at 9:07 am
Posted on 6/17/20 at 8:54 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
One of the first things the Constitution established was the self-evident clause that all men are created equal.
Yep, and at the time, the overwhelming majority on both sides did not consider the slaves as men.
quote:
State laws that establish a hierarchy based on race are clearly unconstitutional.
Not until 1865.
quote:
The federal government had every right to intervene with regard to unconstitutional state laws.
And going to war is the only solution, right? It must be incredible, the number of times the federal government has declared war on states or groups of states, because of unconstitutional state laws, huh? No? That's strange.
The Civil War was about the Kansas-Nebraska Act, popular sovereignty, slavery, and secession.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:00 am to Jack Daniel
toss in that only the North had to draft or force people to go fight.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:08 am to BamaMamaof2
Here is the issue. The 2 sides had different reasons for the war.
Slavery was a large part of the southern reason for secession. Yes, there were other issues, such as tariffs. But secession started when Lincoln was elected due to many thinking he would outlaw or get rid of or hinder slavery, especially expansion. Lincoln did not run to end slavery, he did run to outlaw the growth of it in the new territories as they became states. That balance of free vs. slave states had been an issue since the Missouri Compromise.
South seceded due to state's rights, major being slavery and the right to keep it.
North invaded due to the south seceding. The northerners for the most part did not fight the civil war to end slavery. But to keep the south from seceding.
The south fought b/c they were invaded by the north.
The reason behind them both fighting was the south's secession. A large reason for secession as in many documents was slavery.
Slavery was a large part of the southern reason for secession. Yes, there were other issues, such as tariffs. But secession started when Lincoln was elected due to many thinking he would outlaw or get rid of or hinder slavery, especially expansion. Lincoln did not run to end slavery, he did run to outlaw the growth of it in the new territories as they became states. That balance of free vs. slave states had been an issue since the Missouri Compromise.
South seceded due to state's rights, major being slavery and the right to keep it.
North invaded due to the south seceding. The northerners for the most part did not fight the civil war to end slavery. But to keep the south from seceding.
The south fought b/c they were invaded by the north.
The reason behind them both fighting was the south's secession. A large reason for secession as in many documents was slavery.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:11 am to Jack Daniel
A quick google search of the Letters of Secession will show you why each state seceded.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:11 am to troyt37
Of course things were a bit different at that time. Civil War almost started 30 years earlier due to the Federal Government not being happy with a state law.
Nullification crisis and if Jackson had actually sent troops into South Carolina to enforce the tariffs before an compromise was reached.
Nullification crisis and if Jackson had actually sent troops into South Carolina to enforce the tariffs before an compromise was reached.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:15 am to Damone
quote:
People still cling to the fantasy that the Civil War wasn’t about slavery?
With every pretzel contorted fiber in their beings.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:17 am to BamaMamaof2
quote:
On Dec. 25, 1860, South Carolina declared unfair taxes to be a cause of secession: "The people of the Southern States are not only taxed for the benefit of the Northern States, but after the taxes are collected, three-fourths (75%) of them are expended at the North (to subsidize Wall Street industries that elected Lincoln)." (Paragraphs 5-8)
Straight from the South Carolina Letter of Secession:
quote:
The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution
quote:
A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:18 am to mgdtiger
quote:
South seceded due to state's rights, major being slavery and the right to keep it.
I don't know how many more times I can point this out. The south vehemently opposed the north's state's rights when they wanted to pass slavery laws that they didn't like.
This is a documented fact.
If the south really fought the war for state's rights, they were awful damn hypocritical in doing so.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:23 am to wackatimesthree
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:24 am to mgdtiger
quote:
Lincoln did not run to end slavery, he did run to outlaw the growth of it in the new territories as they became states. That balance of free vs. slave states had been an issue since the Missouri Compromise.
That is true, he didn't want to go to war over slavery that existed in the southern states. He just didn't want the the new states to establish as slave states.
One aspect about the populace of the south at that time was that many of them were of Scottish, Irish and Scot/Irish decent. Them and their relations had escaped the tyranny of rule under the British crown and absolutely opposed to outside powers, the north, coming in and telling them what to do. There was just a part of the Southerner that rejected the notion of the north telling them what to do.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:24 am to mgdtiger
quote:
Here is the issue. The 2 sides had different reasons for the war.
That is a really good run down. In addition the presence of four serious candidates on the ballot nationally had a lot to do with it.
Lincoln was not even a candidate on any of the ballots in the South and in the few border states he barely received any votes.
Imagine today if a candidate won the Presidential election who was not even a choice for you won the Presidency.
Imagine a choice between Trump, Romney, Biden and AOC. And AOC is not even on the ballot in any Southern state but becomes President of the United States.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:27 am to BamaMamaof2
quote:
On Dec. 25, 1860, South Carolina declared unfair taxes to be a cause of secession:
I wouldn't use South Carolina as an example of a state not succeeding because of slavery. I also couldn't find your quote in their succession letter. The one time they do mention unfair taxes is when they are complaining about paying the three-fifths compromise tax on their slaves.
Below are the numerous times they mention slavery as causes for their succession which is basically the majority of their succession letter.
quote:
"No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."
This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.
quote:
But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.
quote:
Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.
quote:
The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.
We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
quote:
A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#South_Carolina
This post was edited on 6/17/20 at 9:29 am
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:29 am to BamaMamaof2
quote:
Was slavery involved, yes, but it was not the only reason and not even the overriding issue, even to Lincoln.
Did Lincoln start the Civil War?
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:32 am to BayouBlitz
What do you mean by start?
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:36 am to BayouBlitz
quote:
Did Lincoln start the Civil War?
I was using that as a point to show that at the time, slavery in the north was not a major issue. The population of the north really didn't care about it and wasn't behind the idea of war.
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:38 am to Damone
quote:Only simple minded people think it was. It could have been any issue that causes the South to attempt to leave the Union.
People still cling to the fantasy that the Civil War wasn’t about slavery?
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:43 am to wackatimesthree
An opinion piece by the Washington Post!
Really, that is what you are posting as relevant facts?
Really, that is what you are posting as relevant facts?
Posted on 6/17/20 at 9:52 am to OleWar
And the 4 candidates all differed on slavery. Breckenridge wanted it everywhere. Douglass wa for popular sovereignty. Lincoln no expansion and bell was trying to be the moderate on the issue and ignored it for the most part.
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