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re: Hell is real. Non-Christians and unbelievers I would love your thoughts. I love you guys.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 5:01 pm to bluedragon
Posted on 4/27/21 at 5:01 pm to bluedragon
quote:
Start with Josephus. A Jewish Roman Historian of the time. He was in the City of Jerusalem when it was sacked by the Romans.
Tacitus another Roman Historian
Pliny the Younger
Babylonian Talmud
Lucian
None of those were contemporaries of Jesus though, so they certainly weren't documenting contemporaneous accounts of Jesus.
quote:
When you've never opened a book. All you have to debate with is the trash you half listened to on the history channel.
Why are you so angry?
1
Posted on 4/27/21 at 5:19 pm to Tigerdew
quote:Psychopaths are convincing but don't believe their bullshite.
He tells this story with such conviction he may actually believe what he's saying
Posted on 4/27/21 at 5:22 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
no sleeping all day
It's actually the reverse of that. Hell is an unending parade of bad dreams that you'll never awaken from.
This post was edited on 4/27/21 at 5:23 pm
Posted on 4/27/21 at 5:25 pm to Mo Jeaux
Not angry at all ....Your projections prove that you are not interested and unbelieving ...
No one claims that the historians witnessed or traveled with Jesus at all. In fact ...the historians were not present at any event in person ...other than Josephus when Jerusalem was sacked. Josephus was wounded during the collapse.
Historians are not always there in person. They interview and take notes plus any government documentation available.
The only witnesses were the disciples and 500 believers that saw the risen Jesus.
The entire New Testament is written by followers and the historic information by EYE WITNESSES. And is written before 67AD. Christ rose in 33AD. The earliest fragment from the book of Mark is still being debated. Pre dated at 50AD. Dated 50AD causes the question ...when was the original written and how copies were passed to the growing churches in the surrounding area? Scrolls tear and no had invented Scotch Tape yet. Why do we know the New Testament was completed within 67AD? Peter and Paul were martyred in 64 and 67AD Their works were completed at that time.
Unlike the Koran ....written more than 200 years after the death of Mohammad.
Like I said .....if all you have is the highlight reel of CNN and MSNBC .....it's not much to go on.
The most learned historical biblical scholars of the time walk the earth this moment. Dedicated Atheists who have studied the works their entire lives. More knowledgeable than Theologians. AND They don't have an answer ...
No one claims that the historians witnessed or traveled with Jesus at all. In fact ...the historians were not present at any event in person ...other than Josephus when Jerusalem was sacked. Josephus was wounded during the collapse.
Historians are not always there in person. They interview and take notes plus any government documentation available.
The only witnesses were the disciples and 500 believers that saw the risen Jesus.
The entire New Testament is written by followers and the historic information by EYE WITNESSES. And is written before 67AD. Christ rose in 33AD. The earliest fragment from the book of Mark is still being debated. Pre dated at 50AD. Dated 50AD causes the question ...when was the original written and how copies were passed to the growing churches in the surrounding area? Scrolls tear and no had invented Scotch Tape yet. Why do we know the New Testament was completed within 67AD? Peter and Paul were martyred in 64 and 67AD Their works were completed at that time.
Unlike the Koran ....written more than 200 years after the death of Mohammad.
Like I said .....if all you have is the highlight reel of CNN and MSNBC .....it's not much to go on.
The most learned historical biblical scholars of the time walk the earth this moment. Dedicated Atheists who have studied the works their entire lives. More knowledgeable than Theologians. AND They don't have an answer ...
Posted on 4/27/21 at 5:33 pm to rooster108bm
To be fair the Apostle John may have very well been transported to Heaven by Revelation 4:1,2 because he was to "come up here" and he was "in the Spirit" but it is difficult to tell because when angels appear in the bible it sometimes seems to create a feeling of sleepiness in vision-like experiences (rev 1:17), you see Daniel seems to have this sleepiness as well when confronted (Dan 8:18, Dan 10:8-9). Peter was asleep in prison when an angel woke him up by striking him on the side in Acts 12:7 before breaking him out in the midst of guards.
Daniel sees a strange vision in Dan 12:5-7 about a man near a riverbank talking to another man on what he saw was a riverbank reminiscent of the what John saw speaking of a might angel setting his foot on the sea and the land in Rev 10:1-3. I used to wonder if Daniel saw a vision of John looking at the mighty angel because both were given knowledge of end-times.
Daniel sees a strange vision in Dan 12:5-7 about a man near a riverbank talking to another man on what he saw was a riverbank reminiscent of the what John saw speaking of a might angel setting his foot on the sea and the land in Rev 10:1-3. I used to wonder if Daniel saw a vision of John looking at the mighty angel because both were given knowledge of end-times.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 5:34 pm to civilag08
God is Santa clause for adults. No proof he actually exists but they believe in him.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 6:06 pm to Atiger88
quote:
No proof he actually exists
But you exist. Why is that? Where did you and 8,000,000,000 people worldwide come from?
Posted on 4/27/21 at 6:07 pm to tarzana
Who’s to say it wasn’t from Thor or Zeus or Ra?
Posted on 4/27/21 at 6:11 pm to roadGator
quote:
Like progressive dogma?
I like how you assume I am a "progressive". But yes, just like progressive or any dogma.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 6:36 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
I finally found myself a little paradise
Deep in the darkest depths of hell
Nobody knows I'm down here, but I like it like that
I do what I want and I lose my mind
I always knew I was going southbound
I got a soul I had to sell
I knew I was evil for a reason
I knew I had to go to hell
I took it upon myself to build a temple here
I'm smoking and drinking far too much
You wouldn't believe the following I've got down here
I'm thinking of buying a big flash car
I always knew I was going southbound
I got a soul I had to sell
I knew I was evil for a reason
I knew I had to go to hell
'Cos see I'm all for beating Jesus
You see I wanna take that throne
I never said that it was easy
But I can beat him on my own
It's so reassuring here that I can fool myself
Out of my head on a power trip
Legions of millions eating out of these evil hands
And I'm ready to take this show to Earth
Orange Goblin - Jesus Beater
Posted on 4/27/21 at 7:04 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
Yahweh was a not a very nice God. I think you answered your own question.
I’m not sure your reply helped provide any clarity with an answer.
I’m suggesting that the Old Testament God does not exist. We know this because the well intended texts were not sufficiently persuasive to influence human behavior. This meant people were inspired to go at it again with v2.0. The New Testament God is less vengeful but not by much since there is still the concept of hell as told by Jesus.
My position is there is no hell because it still requires a vengeful God/Creator. Stories about hell in the New Testament are merely early efforts at human psychology from one human to others. Hell still does not exist.
Why am I wrong?
Posted on 4/27/21 at 7:29 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
I have ZERO problem with believers..I am not one of "those" atheists. But, The Hell is like Gravity argument is not a good one.
It's not an argument at all. It's a nonsensical statement.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 8:05 pm to Willie Stroker
The Old Testament starts to make more sense when you put Jesus in the middle of it, because many things were pointing forward towards a future savior.
Isaiah 12:2 is but one verse that immediately comes to mind
Behold God is my salvation(yeshua), I will trust and not be afraid; For YAH, the Lord, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation (yeshua), Therefore with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation (yeshua).
The Hebrew word used here for salvation is "Yeshua", which some may recall is the Hebrew name for Jesus, so in a very real way, His name was used all over the OT as well.
You may remember the woman at Jacobs well in John 4, where Jesus reveals He is the source of the "living water" in John 4:13-14, but really a lot of examples from the OT can be drawn only to point towards Jesus.
Jesus himself spoke these words
Luke 24:44 "These are the words which I spoke to you while was still with you, that things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. "
Jesus Himself was saying that Old Testament was about Him.
Hebrews 10:7 also emphasizes this
Then I said "Behold I have come - In the volume of the book it is written of Me - To do Your will, O' God".
Which is also a quote from Psalms 40:7
Jesus fulfilled things in the Law the rest of us cannot.
Much wrath was poured out on Jesus on the cross, of which none of us could bear, rather He bore the load for us.
Isaiah 12:2 is but one verse that immediately comes to mind
Behold God is my salvation(yeshua), I will trust and not be afraid; For YAH, the Lord, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation (yeshua), Therefore with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation (yeshua).
The Hebrew word used here for salvation is "Yeshua", which some may recall is the Hebrew name for Jesus, so in a very real way, His name was used all over the OT as well.
You may remember the woman at Jacobs well in John 4, where Jesus reveals He is the source of the "living water" in John 4:13-14, but really a lot of examples from the OT can be drawn only to point towards Jesus.
Jesus himself spoke these words
Luke 24:44 "These are the words which I spoke to you while was still with you, that things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. "
Jesus Himself was saying that Old Testament was about Him.
Hebrews 10:7 also emphasizes this
Then I said "Behold I have come - In the volume of the book it is written of Me - To do Your will, O' God".
Which is also a quote from Psalms 40:7
Jesus fulfilled things in the Law the rest of us cannot.
Much wrath was poured out on Jesus on the cross, of which none of us could bear, rather He bore the load for us.
This post was edited on 4/27/21 at 8:07 pm
Posted on 4/27/21 at 8:08 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
What an amazing culture.
Rich and vibrant.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 8:13 pm to Cajun Tiger 4
If we found a 14 year old microwaving a small kitten we’d institutionalize him and pretty much write him off (barring major psychological progress achieved over a period of many years).
For God to send (or allow Satan to send) many billions of humans to an eternity in hell means that God is a sociopath many times over Khan, Hitler, Stalin, or Amin and is more inhumane than anything we’ve ever seen on earth. I refuse to believe in a literal hell or that the Christian god would be capable of this.
For God to send (or allow Satan to send) many billions of humans to an eternity in hell means that God is a sociopath many times over Khan, Hitler, Stalin, or Amin and is more inhumane than anything we’ve ever seen on earth. I refuse to believe in a literal hell or that the Christian god would be capable of this.
This post was edited on 4/27/21 at 8:14 pm
Posted on 4/27/21 at 8:52 pm to Manarchist
quote:
All of these are a consequence of flesh and have no need of an outside influence.
So, we are irreparably (but not irredeemably) flawed, lapsed, fallen at our core? Scripture certainly concurs. I have met my enemy and he is me. Sounds right to me and scripture has, in that regard, been borne out by my life experiences.
The World, the Flesh, and the Devil...and in most instances the World and the Devil can barely hang with our Flesh when it comes to tripping us up and leading us away from Christ.
St. Paul points out seventeen sinful works of the flesh, but lest we imagine his list is exhaustive, he ends it with, “and such like:”
quote:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
-Galatians 5:19-21
Posted on 4/27/21 at 9:10 pm to Atiger88
quote:
I'm not sure Jesus ever even existed. I'm not really conserned about religion as it isn't important. We were nothing before we were born and probably nothing after we die.
That’s a hell of a chance to take....pun intended. Eternity is a long time.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 9:15 pm to FlexDawg
If there is a god, they are either not all powerful or at best indifferent to suffering and most likely sadistic.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 9:15 pm to Willie Stroker
quote:
My position is there is no hell because it still requires a vengeful God/Creator. Stories about hell in the New Testament are merely early efforts at human psychology from one human to others. Hell still does not exist.
Why am I wrong?
The Biblical definition - as God (assuming such exists) defines Itself - is quoted as "God is Love"; Love being manifest as a Feeling of Unity. God is total Unity; likely the pre-Big Bang version, as we comprehend such from the bottom up.
Hell could be/likely is, Love's Opposite. Light v Dark. Existence v Non Existence, Belief v Non Belief...Subjective Reality v Default/Objective Reality.
Show me a person that has experienced the best that Love has to offer...and I'll show a person that is in 'hell' if they lose said Love with no hope of re-acquiring it.
Everything...is a state of mind. For Humans...a very limited (therefore Imperfect/Sinful) mind at that. A few lbs. worth. The Mind of God is the 'size' of the/this Universe, and all of the timeless and infinite Universes possible.
The Choice not to believe, is both absolutely determinative, and sovereign to an individual; lest God be accused of creating programmed individuals to worship (Love/Unity) Him/It/Whatever.
Bottom line. It is folly to argue the existence of God to anyone wherein Belief - the necessary affirmation/validation required for God to exist as a SUBJECTIVE REALITY. Ultimately, ALL Humans become 'Matter Mulch"; I.e., they 'unify' with the Source/Reservoir. Believers lose their 'Self', and expand into infinite Love/Unity. Non-Believers - via the same process of 'death' - do the same; difference being SUBJECTIVE, in that a non-Believer 'dissolves'/dissipates, as opposed to expanding. That is no small (Subjective) experience. Non-existence as a 'feeling', in comparison to being a Tiger Fan in box seats on the 50 yard line with Burrow/Team bringing it home...is a big f'n deal. Heaven v Hell.
God is found via validating Love. That is all.
Posted on 4/27/21 at 9:26 pm to Cajun Tiger 4
We’re in a simulation
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