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re: Green Beret Strangled in Mali - possible illicit cash scheme coverup
Posted on 11/13/17 at 8:39 am to 10MTNTiger
Posted on 11/13/17 at 8:39 am to 10MTNTiger
quote:
You sure about that?
Desecrating corpses is against the convention, which makes canoeing automatically a crime (but hard to prove since there is something called a "security" shot to ensure the guy is dead).
As for tomahawks, I suspect using them when you have guns available would be frowned upon by military lawyers. Some of the SEALS apparently hated the idea and refused to carry them since they serve "no military purpose." Moreover, they just weigh the SEALS down with unnecessary gear.
Of course, I am basing this off the Intercept's article. They claim the interviewed 18 current and former members of ST6 about this issue (and the Intercept is generally pretty careful before they publish something).
Again, I have no problem with blowing the heads off of terrorists or scalping them with tomahawks. But the fact is that it's illegal (if it is done maliciously to desecrate the body).
0
Posted on 11/13/17 at 9:05 am to Loserman
quote:
The USMC is part of the Navy too.
Wrong, the USN and USMC are coequal branches of the Department of the Navy with full equal chairs on the Joint Chiefs. The SEALs have been a cowboy show for a long-time and everyone knows why DevGroup got the OBL mission over Delta. It was 100% politics and I for one would prefer the SOCOM units that shy away from lime light get the important missions while disbanding these Rambo wannabes.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 9:22 am to Loserman
quote:
The USMC is part of the Navy too.
Administratively, they are. which isn't that important for the purposes of this conversation . The USMC is its own branch with its own mission. One much more suited to fielding a SEAL type unit.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 9:26 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
A large number of the missions that have been carried out almost exclusively by SOF forces lately could have been accomplished just as easily by conventional forces. The problem is that SOCOM has so much sway of the DOD and our civilian politicians are absolutely enamored with them that SOCOM manages to take any mission that they want. Then they say they need more funding to accomplish their broader mission set. If you look at a lot of the missions that SOF forces are carrying out around the globe right now, probably more than half of them aren't really that "special."
Yep all of this is correct and the whole Ops tempo is just killing readiness.
quote:
aren't really that "special."
More truth to this in multiple ways; SOCOM is being more and more like "big service" in a lot of aspects.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 9:27 am to AUstar
quote:
ST6 and Delta Force are given a lot of leeway. They are basically no different than CIA operatives (and actually work closely with CIA paramilitary dudes, most of whom are themselves retired SEALS or Delta). It's to the point that they really aren't even military anymore. They have little supervision, no grooming standards, and basically have a license to kill as they see fit. They are great when they uphold military ethics, but if you get a few bad apples, watch out.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Delta is one of the most disciplined and professional units in the world.
Ground Branch is composed of more Green Beret retirees than anything else.
Grooming standards exist.
Supervision and scrutiny exist for Army SOF.
CIA is insanely different from SOF units. It's not even fricking close.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 9:30 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
you look at a lot of the missions that SOF forces are carrying out around the globe right now, probably more than half of them aren't really that "special."
75% could be passed off to conventional forces.
But then how would SOF commanders get their command billets and grow their budgets? SOCOM is its own frickin army now, instead of a capability of the DOD.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 9:37 am to MrCarton
quote:
But then how would SOF commanders get their command billets and grow their budgets? SOCOM is its own frickin army now, instead of a capability of the DOD.
It is not just the SOF community that is to blame here... The branches play a large part in not handing things off, especially the Navy because other than the USMC, they do not have the "conventional" force to hand off to and in many cases the mission would go to the Army...
You saw something similar in Panama, when the services fought over who was going to get what mission or what piece of the pie and it got a lot of good operators killed because they were not utilized properly...
Right now, there is enough "war" to go around to make everyone happy unfortunately...
Posted on 11/13/17 at 9:42 am to The Maj
quote:
is not just the SOF community that is to blame here
No doubt, but many SOF commanders have unquestionably put their personal desires and careers ahead of readiness. Big army could easily do a huge percentage of these missions, but we've protected our rice bowl.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 10:23 am to The Maj
quote:The Navy can suck it up. They have no need for a ground combat force, conventional or otherwise.
The branches play a large part in not handing things off, especially the Navy because other than the USMC, they do not have the "conventional" force to hand off to and in many cases the mission would go to the Army...
quote:Like when the SEALs tried to conduct an infantry assault across open ground and got fricked up?
You saw something similar in Panama, when the services fought over who was going to get what mission or what piece of the pie and it got a lot of good operators killed because they were not utilized properly...
Posted on 11/13/17 at 10:32 am to MrCarton
quote:
SOCOM is its own frickin army now, instead of a capability of the DOD.
Their longtime marriage with the CIA has resulted in this development.
They now have many folks convinced they're the only "defense" we need, along with some drones.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 10:46 am to MrCarton
quote:
75% could be passed off to conventional forces.
Some of the easier stuff maybe but the rise of SOCOM has seen a decline in operational ability in conventional units.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 10:47 am to MrCarton
Sad story.
Also sad, this happens a lot more often than we can imagine.
Also sad, this happens a lot more often than we can imagine.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 10:49 am to Lakeboy7
quote:That's a bigger problem than any of the brass are willing to admit
the rise of SOCOM has seen a decline in operational ability in conventional units.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 10:57 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
the rise of SOCOM has seen a decline in operational ability in conventional units.
That's a bigger problem than any of the brass are willing to admit
Its scary when you talk to people at the JRTC or NTC. "Elite" brigades from the 101, 82nd, 1st ID, 4th ID are just shells of what they were. The Army is a mess right now.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 11:12 am to Lakeboy7
quote:
"Elite" brigades from the 101, 82nd, 1st ID, 4th ID are just shells of what they were.
I know we're not in line on most political topics, but I believe we are on this one - when the Army stopped being a warfighting force and became a social experimentation laboratory, we started on this path. If we returned to a philosophy of lethality above all other considerations, this could be restored in 2 or 3 years, easily.
Big "if" though...
Posted on 11/13/17 at 11:17 am to Wolfhound45
quote:
The first attempt to break up the monopoly;
Not really. Big Army has been doing security advise and assist for awhile now. SFABs will continue to focus on the bigger picture, like training, while special ops focus on advising at the kinetic level.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 11:21 am to 13SaintTiger
It is the first structural versus re-missioning attempt.
Posted on 11/13/17 at 11:28 am to Wolfhound45
quote:
It is the first structural versus re-missioning attempt.
Not really. There are big Army units in Afghan right now structured for train advise and assist and they trained for it prior to deployment. These units are comprised of multiple units though, even guard and active, which is what SFAB plans to fix.
It’s also not breaking up a monopoly as you initially mentioned. Just doing some restructuring as you alluded to, to allow our other conventional forces to focus on what they are actually trained to do, which is direct action.
This post was edited on 11/13/17 at 11:34 am
Posted on 11/13/17 at 11:30 am to MrCarton
quote:
Green Beret Strangled in Mali - possible illicit cash scheme coverup
Is this the same story that came out a couple of months ago that claimed they were just wrestling?
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