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re: Conversation with a secular/agnostic friend about what has happened in America
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:12 pm to bayoubengals88
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:12 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
Seems like pretty standard Gospel stuff to me.
No, that's not the Gospel.
Again, the word "gospel" means "good news."
"Loving others" is a Judaic principle. It existed before Christ incarnated.
Christ came to communicate a couple of things.
First, the bad news. We're not capable of following that Jewish command to love others as ourselves. Our righteousness is like filthy rags to God.
We're dead in sin and the wages of that sin is death. For everyone. That's the bad news He communicated.
The good news he communicated (the Gospel) is that He is not only capable of loving righteously, but that He does love the world and was willing to give Himself up for it so that any who will receive Him may have the substitutionary atonement for sin that His sacrifice provided and live rather than die.
That's the Gospel.
It's also true that once someone belongs to Jesus and receives the Holy Spirit, they will undergo a process of sanctification that will include becoming more loving toward others and acting less from a selfish perspective and more from a selfless perspective, and that fruit is how you will know them as a Christian.
But that's a result of the Gospel having been consummated, not the Gospel itself.
Why it's important to make the distinction—you can't earn salvation. If one goes around thinking that it's the stuff they're doing that is the key element in this transformation, they're liable to get confused about what is really happening. Jesus had a parable for those confused folks near the end of the Sermon on the Mount.
This post was edited on 11/10/26 at 2:14 pm
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:18 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
I told him when there’s a vacuum, something is going to fill that void every time.
Yeah, sure, but that doesn't mean that that something must be the red (commie) green (muslim) alliance.
I agree that modern day Christianity (which I'd argue is a Christian sword that secularism has dulled) is a wonderful stopgap for this type of crap, and its no coincidence that Christianity's decline has allowed for this to happen, but something else roughly as positive could have taken Christianity's place.
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:21 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
"Loving others" is a Judaic principle.
It’s a principle that exists and has existed in numerous cultures.
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:22 pm to burger bearcat
Another take on this is that even if the muslims do become the dominant religion in this country, they'll find no one is interested.
If they weren't interested in fundamentalist and evangelical christianity, they damn sure won't be interested in islam.
If they weren't interested in fundamentalist and evangelical christianity, they damn sure won't be interested in islam.
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:29 pm to burger bearcat
This is a good conversation if we can have it without some of the typical hardliners, contrarians or deceivers.
There's a whole bunch at play with this one.
At the simplest level, that's because Christianity is hard. And we avoid hard things, and culture, media and technology have made it easier and easier to avoid hard things. It's falling apart because it both requires the adherence to true Christian principles, and an outwardly motion to that. It has to be recognized. Without Christianity, the values will fall apart eventually... especially at scale. And for a lot of reasons.
I assume he means by free and normal, he means the high trust, hard working, helpful but looking at personal responsibility both for yourself and those close to you. Etc. All of that will unravel without Christianity, because no other value system places those things in the same light as Christianity, full stop. They often say they do, but they don't.
All of the things he likes about free and normal, are actually Christian, by design.
See the comment about hard stuff above. Most Christian denominations have shifted to moral therapeutic deism. It's glorified psychology to feel good about oneself.
Correct. Your friend should read Tom Holland's Dominion. It basically will lay out the cast that Christianity remade the world, it is the "Water the modern first world breathes," when it comes to values and structures, and that even if agnostic or atheist, you should still support that Christian worldview, because even outside of religious application, it makes for a good society.
I know I have a bunch who may jump in about that not being explicitly Christian, but you can't even define those terms without very Christian ideas.
It's really that simple.
Now, what you can do is take those things and TRY to rebuild them without Christianity, but you'd end up back in the same place - Christianity.
quote:
He didn’t understand why we people wouldn’t just want to live in a free and normal way without having to be outwardly Christian.
There's a whole bunch at play with this one.
At the simplest level, that's because Christianity is hard. And we avoid hard things, and culture, media and technology have made it easier and easier to avoid hard things. It's falling apart because it both requires the adherence to true Christian principles, and an outwardly motion to that. It has to be recognized. Without Christianity, the values will fall apart eventually... especially at scale. And for a lot of reasons.
I assume he means by free and normal, he means the high trust, hard working, helpful but looking at personal responsibility both for yourself and those close to you. Etc. All of that will unravel without Christianity, because no other value system places those things in the same light as Christianity, full stop. They often say they do, but they don't.
All of the things he likes about free and normal, are actually Christian, by design.
quote:
Like so many of our churches. They have become nothing but hollowed out feel good, pep talk centers at best, or in some cases full out NGO Democrat activist groups… there is nothing sacred or worth preserving anymore.
See the comment about hard stuff above. Most Christian denominations have shifted to moral therapeutic deism. It's glorified psychology to feel good about oneself.
quote:
I told him when there’s a vacuum, something is going to fill that void every time. All of the enemies of Christianity are cooperating right now to take out their biggest obstacle, they will eventually cannibalize each other later on.
Correct. Your friend should read Tom Holland's Dominion. It basically will lay out the cast that Christianity remade the world, it is the "Water the modern first world breathes," when it comes to values and structures, and that even if agnostic or atheist, you should still support that Christian worldview, because even outside of religious application, it makes for a good society.
I know I have a bunch who may jump in about that not being explicitly Christian, but you can't even define those terms without very Christian ideas.
It's really that simple.
Now, what you can do is take those things and TRY to rebuild them without Christianity, but you'd end up back in the same place - Christianity.
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:49 pm to wackatimesthree
Here’s your challenge:
“Scot McKnight has his finger on a sore spot in contemporary Christianity, particularly in America. For many people, “the gospel” has shrunk right down to a statement about Jesus’ death and its meaning, and a prayer with which people accept it. That matters, the way the rotor blades of a helicopter matter. You won’t get off the ground without them. But rotor blades alone don’t make a helicopter. And a microcosmic theory of atonement and faith don’t, by themselves, make up “the gospel.” N.T. Wright in the forward to The King Jesus Gospel: The Original Good News Revisited
This book had to be written to remind people who hold views that are 200 years old that they should adopt views that are 2,000 years old.
“Scot McKnight has his finger on a sore spot in contemporary Christianity, particularly in America. For many people, “the gospel” has shrunk right down to a statement about Jesus’ death and its meaning, and a prayer with which people accept it. That matters, the way the rotor blades of a helicopter matter. You won’t get off the ground without them. But rotor blades alone don’t make a helicopter. And a microcosmic theory of atonement and faith don’t, by themselves, make up “the gospel.” N.T. Wright in the forward to The King Jesus Gospel: The Original Good News Revisited
This book had to be written to remind people who hold views that are 200 years old that they should adopt views that are 2,000 years old.
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:51 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
There are people who truly believe Talafreako is a Christian preaching a Christian message.
Well if he is, he is a heretic.
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:54 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:That’s 1 of 3 ways that conversion happens. All are valid. Some need not apply.
It's also true that once someone belongs to Jesus and receives the Holy Spirit, they will undergo a process of sanctification that will include becoming more loving toward others and acting less from a selfish perspective and more from a selfless perspective, and that fruit is how you will know them as a Christian.
Some people, like my kids, experience regeneration at birth.
They’ll likely never have a Damascus road experience.
And that’s ok.
They’ll be Gospel participants no less.
Our disagreement stems from your refusal to acknowledge life long formation as conversion.
This post was edited on 11/10/26 at 2:57 pm
Posted on 11/10/26 at 2:54 pm to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Well if he is, he is a heretic.
According to whom?
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