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Message
re: Civil War... States Rights or Slavery
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:31 am to DisplacedBuckeye
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:31 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Really? You don't think you could fire up support for an issue that doesn't affect everyone directly?
Have you met people?
fire up support to go march around with signs? sure
fire up support to voluntarily go fight in a brutal and bloody war (especially with how wars were fought back then)? no, not so much
1
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:32 am to DawgRebelinAL
quote:
Who invaded whom, fool?
And here's one of them now.
You telling me this idiot couldn't be convinced? Really?
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:32 am to IT_Dawg
quote:
Yea, but again, without Slavery issue, not a 1% chance of a Civil War
I disagree. The Corwin Amendment removed slavery as an issue. And uncivil war still ensued.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:33 am to Nutriaitch
quote:
fire up support to voluntarily go fight in a brutal and bloody war (especially with how wars were fought back then)? no, not so much
History is full of people doing exactly that.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:34 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Name a state who didn't cite slavery in their Declaration of Secession.
Your post supports my point.
nobody is even attempting to deny that Slavery was one of the main causes.
but everyone here except you understands that the answer is more complex than just a single issue igniting a very brutal and ugly war.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:35 am to Park duck
A state’s right to enslave people…not open for debate, it’s explicitly stated in letters of secession.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:36 am to DisplacedBuckeye
Facts aren't on your side, idiot. Not now and certainly not then when the primary sources of the day make it perfectly clear that the northern war effort is a war of conquest and subjugation. Hell, read Ellen Sherman's letters to Billy T---bitch is straight Magda Goebbels level of bloodthirsty.
Idiot.
Idiot.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:37 am to Park duck
quote:
Whats your take?
Yes is the only correct answer.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:37 am to cwill
While ugly, none of that is relevant to the federal government's decision to use military force to prevent secession.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:37 am to Indefatigable
quote:
The Confederacy's government was no less centralized than the federal government.
This is modern leftist level ignorant. The central government had virtually zero power relative to individual states. It was yet another weakness of the Confederacy.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:38 am to m2pro
quote:
Also, the south absolutely tried to avoid war. They TRIED to secede peacefully, and were actively -forced- into war. That much is not debatable either.
The south did try to avoid war. They did try to secede peacefully and they were forced into war.
All of this is true and being forced into war needed to happen in order to end the institution of slavery.
The United States banned the importation of slaves in or around 1810. The civil war began in 1861. Slave states had a breeding stock. If not for the civil war, it's conceivable slavery could have (at the very least) carried into the early 20th century.
What would've stopped it? Why give up slavery when you can breed your own labor? War was the only answer.
We can all say "there were other factors involved" in the civil war but from a purely practical standpoint, it was about the economics of slavery.
This post was edited on 8/31/22 at 11:40 am
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:38 am to DawgRebelinAL
quote:
Facts aren't on your side, idiot.
They are. I have history. You have stories your pappy fed you.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:39 am to Tuscaloosa
quote:
Looking at the commissioners’ letters for secession - almost all of them list slavery as their primary cause. Ultimately, that boils down to the state’s rights - but the primary state’s right in question, at least in the minds of those who were leading the cause, was slavery.
And if you boil it down a bit further you'll get to economics, and money/power are what almost all nation-state wars are fought over. Asking if the CW is was fought over states rights or slavery is like asking if we got into WW II over Pearl Harbor or the German sub campaign. Both were part of an equation that had a lot more factors in it.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:39 am to cwill
quote:
A state’s right to enslave people…not open for debate, it’s explicitly stated in letters of secession.
Yes, that was the primary state's rights issue of the day.
Yes, slavery was wrong.
Yes, we're all worse off because state's rights lost in the Civil War.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:40 am to Indefatigable
quote:
That is just silly. The Confederacy's government was no less centralized than the federal government.
If this were true, the outcome of the war would have been different. The Confederacy lost because they didn't even have a centralized military.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:41 am to Nutriaitch
quote:
but everyone here except you understands that the answer is more complex than just a single issue igniting a very brutal and ugly war.
Well, not everyone. A few aren't deniers. You want to conflate root cause with what was sold to the ignorant masses. That's "WMDs in Iraq" level stupid.
If it was about anything other than slavery, the Confederacy wouldn't have been whining about Northern states exercising theirs.
They wanted to continue owning people. Period.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:42 am to Pandy Fackler
quote:
All of this is true and being forced into war needed to happen in order to end the institution of slavery.
This is nonsense for multiple reasons. The most obvious being that slavery still exists. The Civil War didn't end it.
Specifically as it relates to the United States, slavery would have ended during industrialization anyway. Once machines become cheaper than "free labor," slavery ends.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:42 am to Park duck
The Constitution upon which the Union was formed codified the Idea that there are “inalienable Rights “ that come from God and that “all men are created equal” in enjoying said Rights. It’s obvious that the Founders did not overlook the hypocrisy/incongruity of their Documents. Slavery had been a cultural and civilizational norm up until that point even in cultures that were enslaved (Africa, pre-European, at the fore; and the Native American population as well). The same Racial and Cultural dynamic and points of conflict that exist today would have existed at the time of the CW, but with a far greater passion between the enslaved and enslavers. Freeing people in you community who despise you would have been no small thing, IRL. Today’s’Slavery’ issue is between those who claim Constitutional God-given Rights as opposed to those who claim that Rights are determined by a Democratic majority vote. Legitimate vote being highly questionable. Same dance, new song. Individual Rights vas State determined Rights. And as the State has become the essential mechanism for life’s basic goods and services, imo, the State will prevail. Lest basic life goods and services go away, and a lot of people with it.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:43 am to PJinAtl
quote:
From the southern side it was State's Rights, one of which was the right to determine if (and how long) slavery would be legal in that state.
From the northern side it was all about preservation of the union/expansion of federal powers. Lincoln himself said if he could preserve the union without freeing a single slave he would do it. Also, if the war from the northern side was truly about abolition, non-secessionist states (looking at you Delaware and New Jersey) would not have waited until the 13th amendment forced them to eradicate slavery.
Side note, Delaware didn't ratify the 13th, 14th, or 15th amendments until late January/early February of 1901.
This.
And I’ll add that Lincoln never technically freed a single slave.
Posted on 8/31/22 at 11:44 am to m2pro
quote:
Also, the south absolutely tried to avoid war. They TRIED to secede peacefully, and were actively -forced- into war. That much is not debatable either.
Virginia's secession commission voted against secession until Lincoln order the raising of 75,000 troops to suppress the rebellion. As a result, Virginia then elected to join the Confederacy.
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