re: Can we agree to stop with the religious persecution of other Christians?

quote:

---

As I said, Christianity does not teach that prayer is a form of magic, nor do we recognize anything about the Christian religion as "magic"

---

It does not matter what Christianity teaches about it. What about this is hard to understand? You don't get to redefine terms simply because the reality of the matter makes you feel silly. And that's exactly what you're trying to do.

quote:

---

I'm calling you out on what I perceive to be a deception on your part.

---

This is frickin laughable. No, there is no deception on my part. I am pointing out the fact of the matter and you don't like it. Again, I couldn't care less.

quote:

---

I can tell you are trying to wriggle out of this by not conceding you were trying to belittle Christians with your word choice and are now just doubling down to save face, but it's not working

---

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't change the reality of the situation.

quote:

---

don't need a safe space at all. I'm happy to call people out on their lies

---

Well, you need to get better at it. Because this is an absurd attempt.

quote:

---

Did you really complain to the mods to get that other thread taken down?

---

Almost certainly.

quote:

---

Why are you even in this thread? I’m not saying you can’t be. I’m just curious why.

---

I just gave that user their first upvote from me ever because the post at the top of this page is unassailable fact.

Paging Foo...

quote:

---

But that still does not make “Imagine no religion” the same thing as “imagine the Soviet Union.”

---

The Soviet Union was the inevitable result of such thinking. It's why all Communist regimes have had similar levels of oppression and suppression of freedom of speech to squelch ideas that run contrary to the state-sponsored ideals. The only way to ensure a semblance of religion-free "peace" is through an iron fist of the state. But as we know, that's not true peace.

quote:

---

You are treating Lennon’s lyric like a government program. It is not. It is a moral imagination: what if people stopped killing and dying over the identities and absolutes that divide them?

---

That's a great ideal, and yet the point I was making is that you can't have that in perfection this side of Heaven, where all will believe the same thing and are restrained from sin, perfectly.

The reason why this idea is unattainable this side of Heaven is precisely because of human nature: we are imperfect and full of sin. We have wrong beliefs and wrong understanding of truth, and that is paired with an ability if not an inclination to unwarranted violence. Until we can be in perfect harmony with one another in both belief about truth claims and our inability to harm others, we cannot expect the ideals of communism to come to fruition at all, because violence will occur one way or another.

Religion-free ideals about peace and harmony also fall short from a philosophical perspective, because atheism cannot provide an "ought" for why Lennon's desires should even be the ideal. Atheism removes all sense of objective morality and reduces it down to subjectivism enforced by the sword or gun. Without God, there is no reason why anyone should be "moral", and particularly when doing so goes against their own self interests.

quote:

---

And Christianity does not get to dodge the same human-nature problem by saying, “Well, our final hope is in the next life.” Christians still live in this life. Christians still vote, govern, legislate, wage war, build institutions, hold power, and decide how to treat people who do not believe what they believe.

---

Correct, which is why Christianity has a standard for ethics based on what God requires of us.

However, Christianity's ethics are based in an eternal and unchanging God who will judge all people in the end. Our ethics are built upon an objective reality and standard, where communism is built upon subjective opinions, when it is all boiled down.

quote:

---

So the question is not just what Christianity says at its best. The question is what Christians do when they get power.

---

Yes, and I would suggest that Christians are to be governed by God's Word, not by our own inclinations.

quote:

---

Because history has plenty of examples of Christians using religion to justify coercion, conquest, persecution, slavery, sectarian violence, and dehumanization too. That does not mean every Christian is guilty of those things. But it does mean you cannot blame atheist atrocities on atheism while treating Christian atrocities as mere human failure.

---

Correct again. However, I can judge Christian atrocities as atrocities with moral weight precisely because I have an objective standard to judge them by.

Communism and other atheistic moral utopia's are not founded upon any sort of objective standard, and in reality, no atheist has a firm foundation to call anything an "atrocity" in the first place, because if there is no ultimate moral standard to hold people to, then morality is nothing more than personal preferences held at a societal level, which can change as society changes (and therefore, as their opinions change). What is an "atrocity" one day can be morally good the next.

quote:

---

If Soviet communism proves that atheistic ideology can become violent when fused with state power, then religious history proves the exact same thing about religion when fused with state power.

---

Sinners will sin, and being a Christian doesn't make a person immune from sin, however it does give them a firm basis for condemning sin as sin, and turning away from it. And, if they decide not to, their beliefs will lead towards eternal judgement by God in the next life.

Atheism lacks this check. Atheists may have a moral compass even if they have no rational basis for it, but they have no mechanism for justice if they do not live by that compass in this life. Christians believe that a wicked man who doesn't face justice in this life will face it in the life to come, but atheists have no such concept; the wicked man (if one dare use such a word) who dies without facing justice has the same fate as the righteous man (again, if one dare to use such a word) who dies.

quote:

---

The real lesson is not “atheism causes murder” or “religion causes murder.” The lesson is that human beings are dangerous when they believe their ideology, religious or secular, gives them permission to dominate everyone else.

---

I think the real lesson is that all people are sinful and tend to manifest that sin in various ways, including abuse of power and violence, and therefore we need a way to be right before a perfect and holy God, and to live according to the standard He has prescribed.

We need to trust in Jesus Christ, the God-man, who took on a human nature and obeyed the law of God for us, and then died a death that we deserve, to forgive our sins and to make us right before God. He also left us the Scriptures through His servants to affirm the law written on our hearts and to explain why we should live lives of obedience and love.

Christ has the power to change hearts and minds, and to give us the desire for peace and harmony that communism lacks. He gives us an objective moral law that communism lacks. He gives us forgiveness of sins that communism lacks. And He provides real justice to the oppressed that communism lacks. You can also substitute "atheism" for "communism", here.

quote:

---

It does not matter what Christianity teaches about it. What about this is hard to understand? You don't get to redefine terms simply because the reality of the matter makes you feel silly. And that's exactly what you're trying to do.

---

You are the one trying to redefine terms or impose terms where they do not exist or apply.

You gave the example of prayer, so let's discuss that to show you are wrong about it.

Christianity teaches that prayer is a worshipful communication with God. The Bible teaches that God is omniscient and omnipresent, and He hears our prayers when we pray--even in our own minds--because of who God is. All we are doing is saying or thinking words, but God knows them. That is not magic in any sense. There are no special incantations that force God to do anything. There is no tapping into to some magical realm through ritual, or forcing God or anyone else to do our bidding by our thoughts or words, but it's plain and basic communication. The only thing special about it is that it's God who receives our prayers, and He is a spirit. We claim nothing "magical" about it.

I wonder if you are confusing the supernatural with magic.

quote:

---

This is frickin laughable. No, there is no deception on my part. I am pointing out the fact of the matter and you don't like it. Again, I couldn't care less.

---

It's clear that you were belittling Christianity by referring to it as "magic", and I pointed that out. Now you are trying to save face by lying about what you were doing and trying to justify it by trying to prove Christianity actually does teach magic.

quote:

---

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't change the reality of the situation.

---

I agree, which is why attempting to get out of this by saying Christians really do believe in (and practice) "magic" is doing what you are accusing me of doing.

At best, you are speaking in ignorance, but I can't honestly believe that at this point since you have been corrected multiple times now and are sticking with the same thing.
[quote]

quote:

---

All the people living life in peace. Nothing to kill or die for. You may say I’m a dreamer. But i’m not the only one.

---

So if you remove the first sentence, most normal people would aspire to this thought. Religion is man made, so removing religion would only cause human nature to show itself in other forms and organizations (like politics and other ideologies). There will always be killing and hate and lack of peace. The history of the world bears this out, before, during and after Jesus.

quote:

---

Prayer is your personal relationship with God and Christ.

---

Prayer was defined in my previous post. If you don't like it, tough shite.

I defined it perfectly