re: Can we agree to stop with the religious persecution of other Christians?

quote:

---

a: the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b: magic rites or incantations
2 a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
b: something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment

---

My definition included literally all of these things.

quote:

---

You don't seem to understand what a fact is.

---

You don't seem to understand how to read. No sense in discussing this further with you in light of this.

quote:

---

My definition included literally all of these things.

---

And none of it matches the Lord's prayer.

quote:

---

You don't seem to understand how to read.

---

You sound a little butt hurt. Too bad your global definition of all prayer as "magic" seems to have gone up in smoke.

quote:

---

No sense in discussing this further with you in light of this.

---

I guess you want to manifest this as well into "fact"

quote:

---

I see you took the time to try and break things down by definition trying to score some sort of point, but you failed. And you even admitted you failed at the top of your post when you actually frickin agreed with what I said.

---

More manifesting.

I pointed out that many Christians treat prayer as magical, however prayer itself is not.

The irony of you claiming others "can't read" when you seem to be fundamentally incapable of understanding where your argument breaks down.

Here is an example of someone treating prayer as magic, to you that means "prayer is magic"

But if you are using a dildo as a toothbrush, that doesn't mean "dildos are toothbrushes"

The misuse of something by a subset of people does not mean that every use of something then can be described in the same way.

This is where the differences lay.

To you, a few cases of misuse open the door to claim that prayer is magical.

To the majority of Christians who base their prayer on the example set by Jesus, the attempt to affect the world outside of God's design is the opposite of prayer.

But you don't get that, you see money hungry meme preachers.

quote:

---

But you don't get that, you see money hungry meme preachers.

---

The definition is the definition. It doesn't matter how you try to twist it. Is all prayer magical practice? No, of course not. If you pray solely to give praise to your creator or to give thanks, that is not magical practice. But when you focus your intent to appeal to spiritual forces to affect change in causal reality to your, or even someone else's benefit, yes, you are practicing magic.

It's just that simple.

Furthermore, to bring it back to the initial point. Foo claimed I was mocking Christians by pointing this out. And again, I was doing no such thing. Magical practice is a cultural universal and was present in Christianity (and all other religions) from the outset. My point was that Foo in particular is known to default to use explanations of magic when he is confronted with information that doesn't sit well with his world view.

The intention wasn't to mock anyone. Only to point out that when a conversation reaches an inevitable conclusion and someone defaults to saying, "yeah, that might seem like it's the case, but God put some magic sauce on it" that isn't a "healthy discussion." Which was what I was pointing out from the get-go.

And of course, he predictably turns around and accuses me of turning into Christian vs non-Christian, which was setting himself up for his other inevitable claim that you are simply not a true Christian if you don't see it how he does.

The guy is notorious for that shite.

I still say that this argument belongs on the OT !!

quote:

---

Is all prayer magical practice? No, of course not. If you pray solely to give praise to your creator or to give thanks, that is not magical practice. But when you focus your intent to appeal to spiritual forces to affect change in causal reality to your, or even someone else's benefit, yes, you are practicing magic.

It's just that simple.

---

So people who ignore how Jesus taught us to pray and only pray in the strange hope of gaining things...

Are trying to practice magic.

Yea that's reasonably orthodox.

quote:

---

Which was what I was pointing out from the get-go.

---

I'll admit, I misunderstood you.

I probably missed a post with clarification.

quote:

---

there is only one true Christian church, the Universal Roman Catholic Church under the direction of the Holy See.

---

Also...

quote:

---

If they don't believe the proper sect, they're not really Christian

---

As long as they arent JW or LDS they are

quote:

---

The definition is the definition. It doesn't matter how you try to twist it. Is all prayer magical practice? No, of course not. If you pray solely to give praise to your creator or to give thanks, that is not magical practice. But when you focus your intent to appeal to spiritual forces to affect change in causal reality to your, or even someone else's benefit, yes, you are practicing magic.

It's just that simple.

---

Then you are straw-manning Christianity, because that's not what the standard for Christian teaching (the Bible) teaches whatsoever. Therefore, you agree that Christianity doesn't teach "magic".

quote:

---

Furthermore, to bring it back to the initial point. Foo claimed I was mocking Christians by pointing this out. And again, I was doing no such thing.

---

The evidence would suggest otherwise. Your first post in this thread was in response to me, which said: "There is no "healthy discussion" with people who default to, "but magic" when they're presented with evidence that contradicts their world view."

You were clearly mocking Christians with this, because no one--especially not me--is saying "but magic" when having these discussions. You were mocking the argumentation and defenses given by Christians by saying that we believe in "magic" to solve difficulties with the teaching.

Ever since I called you out in this thread, you've been backtracking and attempting to justify your use of the word "magic", as if you were being totally serious and respectful in your initial post. You weren't, so you can give up the charade.

quote:

---

Magical practice is a cultural universal and was present in Christianity (and all other religions) from the outset. My point was that Foo in particular is known to default to use explanations of magic when he is confronted with information that doesn't sit well with his world view.

---

That's not what you were referring to in your initial post in this thread, as evidenced by your response to me directly, and without additional context or clarification.

And no, Christianity does not teach "magic". Prayer is not magical (as you seem to have finally conceded), and neither is any supernatural action described in the Bible outside of actual witchcraft, which God condemns.

quote:

---

The intention wasn't to mock anyone. Only to point out that when a conversation reaches an inevitable conclusion and someone defaults to saying, "yeah, that might seem like it's the case, but God put some magic sauce on it" that isn't a "healthy discussion." Which was what I was pointing out from the get-go.

---

Finally you get back to the point I was making, and yet you are still doubling-down on saying you weren't mocking Christians. No Christian on this forum claims God is doing anything with "magic sauce". That's your pejorative description of a supernatural defense of Christianity. If you can provide a quote from a professing Christian on this board who made that claim (about "magic"), I'll apologize immediately.

quote:

---

And of course, he predictably turns around and accuses me of turning into Christian vs non-Christian

---

You did. The OP was talking about Christians attacking other Christians. You chimed in with talking about differing worldviews and talking about "magic", which clearly doesn't apply to Christians arguing with other Christians. As much as I disagree with Roman Catholics, I don't accuse them of adhering to a non-Christian worldview. I can say that about you, though, and other non-Christians. That's why I said you were shifting the discussion.

quote:

---

which was setting himself up for his other inevitable claim that you are simply not a true Christian if you don't see it how he does.

---

Not exactly. As I stated, there are certain standards that all Christians must adhere to in order to even be considered a Christian. It's why I reject LDS and JW's as "Christians" because they can't even agree with the basic creeds of the faith about who God is.