re: Britain's Gene Pool was 90% Replaced in the Bronze Age

Given the idiocy I see every day where do we sign up to get this to happen?

Good thread

I think you're being disingenuous by implying that England was invaded by Ukrainians.

First of all, the Indo-European, Yamnaya homeland was further East.

Second, though they came through what we now know as Ukraine, the people you are talking about: haplogroup R1b, the majority of modern England, France, Germany, are NOT the same as modern Ukrainians, who are Slavs, who are haplogroup R1a1. What happened is that in the time intervening between the R1b Yamnaya passing through and modern day, what we now know as Ukraine was invaded and settled by the Kurgan people - R1a1.

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invaders from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (Ukraine)

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AUstar

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Thanks for the info. Lot of moving and shaking amongst our "simple" predecessors

Sad that you are catching downvotes....

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We've always heard that the Brits are tough and cannot be cucked. They have maintained their island kingdom for millennia without being invaded and conquered (much like Japan).

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What about the Saxons and Normans?

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Basque

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That is the one it focuses on the most part, but they also talk about the Berbers and another group.

The RH negative bloodlines are always interesting.

nice post. thank you.

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I think you're being disingenuous by implying that England was invaded by Ukrainians.

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I hope I didn't imply that. Of course the Yamnaya (who helped found the Corded Ware Culture) had already been in Europe for about 500 years or more before they adopted Bell Beaker culture (the eastern branch of BB) and then finally moved into Britain. Previous studies have covered the Yamnaya in detail (see Haak et al 2015, Matheison et al, 2015 and Lazardis et al, 2016). Just google those names and you'll find the papers online.

The gist of all those papers is that, according to DNA, the Yamnaya began entering Europe in the late Neolithic about 3000 BCE, though smaller bands of them had probably been in and out of Eastern Europe for a long time before that (trading and what not). Once they got to Europe is when we see R1b and R1a start appearing in the Corded Ware culture. Prior to that, there was no R1a and R1b in Europe.

The research paper this thread is about is concerned with is the Bell Beaker Culture (not so aptly abbreviated to BBC). More specifically, the researchers wanted to answer whether the Iberian Beakers were genetically related to the Central European Beakers. In other words, did Iberians move into central Europe to spread the culture? Did Central Europeans move into Iberia? The answer is no, they didn't. It turns out that the Iberian beakers are of old pre-Yamnaya stock while the central European Beakers (who ended up in Britain) have a high level of Yamnaya/Steppe ancestry -- not 100% Steppe, but a high level.

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Second, though they came through what we now know as Ukraine, the people you are talking about: haplogroup R1b, the majority of modern England, France, Germany, are NOT the same as modern Ukrainians, who are Slavs, who are haplogroup R1a1.

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Haplogroup R1a and R1b are both found in the ancient Steppes at two sites: Karelia and Samara. R1b was found in Samara, Russia and R1a was found in Karelia. I don't have the dates of the skeletons off-hand, but I know they were much earlier than 3000 BCE and thus predated the Yamnaya culture itself. This was published in one of David Reich's papers (Reich is at Harvard and considered one of the foremost experts in archaeogentics).

However, neither R1a or R1b has been found in Europe prior to the Yamnaya entering (and many ancient European skeletons have been sequenced). Almost all Europeans prior to Yamnaya were of old hunter-gatherer ancestry (like I2a), of Mediterranean farmer ancestry (G2a, T, J2, etc.), or a mix of the two.

So, it's clear that both R1a and R1b are somehow connected to ancient hunter-gatherers in Russia/Ukraine (northeast of Black Sea) called EHG. EHG itself is a mixture of the Western European HG's (WHG) and a ghost population (that we haven't identified in "pure" form yet) somewhere in Siberia that we call ANE (Ancient North Eurasian). Almost certainly R1a and R1b come from these ANE Siberians because R1a/b is not found in WHG's.

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What happened is that in the time intervening between the R1b Yamnaya passing through and modern day, what we now know as Ukraine was invaded and settled by the Kurgan people - R1a1.

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Yamnaya were Kurgan people. This is clear from their archaeological sites. Various R1b and R1a cultures all throughout the Steppes (and West and Central Asia) were part of the Kurgan culture. Kurgans were also found in the Caucasus (in Georgia mostly) during the Yamnaya period and probably explains how the Yamnaya got their Caucasian ancestry. Hell, Kurgans have been found as far east as the Altai mountains in various Scythian cultures (who were mostly R1a mixed in with some Asian lineages).

Another example: The Andronovo people (2000-900 BCE) who dominated areas like Kazakhstan in the bronze age were Kurgan people who spoke Indo-Iranian (which later branched off into Indo-Aryan and made it all the way to India). The Andronovo males sampled to date are all R1a-Z93 (and all had light colored hair and skin according to their alleles). The population you see in Kazakhstan today (and Tajikstan and other areas) are a mix of these people and East Asians. Asians have been through that part of the world a lot since the bronze age (Mongols, Turks, etc.). But in the bronze age during the time of Andronovo, the people of the Russo-Kazakh Steppes were almost all European ("white people") who would probably look like the average Russian in St. Petersburg.

Basically, the R1a/R1b people dominated Europe and a good swath of Asia. They made it as far as Western China (Tarim Mummies who were R1b) and south into India and Pakistan (Aryans who were R1a). You can find people today in Afghanistan (Nuristanis), Iran, and people in Central Asia (like the Pamirs) who could pass in Europe with fair hair, fair skin and blue or green eyes.

It's the same story in Pakistan with an isolated tribe known as the Kalash. The Kalash are only about 5,000 strong, but they speak an Indo-Aryan language, practice an old Indo-European religion (similar to the Greeks, Romans, Germans, Celts), are mostly fair skinned and you'll see a few blondes among them. It is clear that they have been mixed with South Asians, but you can clearly see the European influence on their appearance. Their religion allows them to drink alcohol and they have sort of Bacchalian festivals full of dancing and carrying on as part of their worship. It is definitely not influenced by Islam, where fun is forbidden. Indeed, it's very similar to how the ancient Greeks used to practice religion (and the Kalash themselves insist they are descendants of Alexander and his armies). Here's a few of the more European looking Kalash:











Sadly, the Kalash are endangered as they are under constant threat from the neighboring Muslims to convert or die. So far the Pakistani government has been pretty good with protecting them from any overt violence, but they are still intimidated and threatened by locals frequently. For example, the locals will blast Muslim prayer songs on loud speakers constantly to harass them. It's become bad enough that a bunch of them said "frick it" and went ahead and converted to Islam just to avoid trouble.

At any rate, the Kalash are not recent migrants from colonial Europe or whatever. They are ancient Indo-Aryans who have been there probably since the bronze age. They claim they are descended from Alexander the Great, but I am pretty sure they are much older than 300 BCE. However, it probably is true that they came into contact with Alexander's armies and may have assimilated some of the Greeks into their gene pool.

Anyway, the Indo-European effect on the world is a fact, but it is politically incorrect to talk too much about it, especially if you connect it to race in any way. We have Hitler to thank for that, by his constant use of the word "Aryan" (which was incorrectly applied to Germans, who have never spoken an Aryan language. The Germans, of course, are genetically related to the Indo-Aryans as are most Europeans).

Fascinating posts! Thanks for putting on here. This stuff is just incredibly interesting.

Bizarre number of down votes. You must be doing something right.

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Steppe Herders/Hunters on horseback militarily dominating farmers?

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It is theorized by a particular author that governments were originally insituted in this way. Agricultural civilizations almost always rose up in geographically limited but very productive flood plains, and they were routinely raided by nomadic warrior bands. Instead of crushing the frick out of farmer folk every year, they began to realize that they could simply post up somewhere inside the civilization and exact tribute from the farmers.