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re: Besides Jesus or Mohammed, who are the most influential figures in history?
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:01 am to AkronTiger
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:01 am to AkronTiger
quote:quote:
Moses wasn’t real. Jesus may not have been either.
I don’t know what’s so funny.
There is no corroborating evidence of Moses’ existence. The Egyptians kept great records which we have. It shows no population decrease (certainly not 60% of its population) at the alleged time of the exodus. Food consumption and storage remained consistent. There’s no record of an Egyptian defeat by Israel or the loss of an army drowning in the Red Sea (Egyptians recorded their losses and defeats). The entire story in the Bible is scientifically inconsistent with reality.
Moses’ name means “son of” in Egyptian. Son of whom? It’s an incomplete name that the Persians gave him after the return of the exiled from Babylon because they didn’t understand Egyptian.
The story of Moses birth was a direct plagiarism of King Sargon of Akkad. Other stories of Moses are directly copied from Egyptian myths and Babylonian myths. Moses character was an amalgamation of 4-5 different more ancient characters of other legends.
Archaeologists digging in Israel have found Israelites consistently throughout the centuries before the defeat of Israel by Assyria. There’s no clear evidence of when the Canaanites became Israelites. They were one and the same. There’s also no archeological evidence of a massive Israelite population ever in Egypt. Also genetically the ancient Israelites of 800BCE are the same as the Canaanites of 1500BCE and 2000BCE.
On the other hand, archaeologists have found the evidence of the Egyptians kicking the massive Hyksos population out of Egypt. They have found the migration of Mycenaean Greeks into southwest Canaan to become the Philistines. There’s plenty of archeological evidence of migrations of peoples from the era, just none of Israel leaving Egypt.
On the subject of Jesus, Paul writes of a celestial Jesus and never mentions himself nor anyone ever interacting b with a flesh and blood man named Jesus on earth. Paul specifically wrote that Jesus appeared after his death and resurrection in a new spiritual heavenly body. The gospel accounts cannot be corroborated and the mentions of Jesus in Josephus writings are obvious forgeries by later Christians especially Eusebius.
5
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:14 am to sms151t
Napoleon. His invasions of European countries ended a lot of the aristocratic rule. His legal system is still used all over the world.
Teddy Roosevelt's encouragement of Japan's "Manifest Destiny" unleashed an Asian Holocaust.
Bismarck's uniting of the Germanic Principalities under one Greater Germany, and his defeat of the French, laid the groundwork for the dynamic nation that would dominate the 20th century. His complex government that, famously, only he could run led to WW1 and the rise of Hitler.
Karl Marx for all the obvious and regrettable reasons.
William the Conquerer changed the history of Western Europe and the UK. After conquering England, he ruled both England and Normandy. By redistributing land such that great Lords owned estates on both sides of the Channel, William ensured that the politics of France and England would remain intertwined.
Alexander Hamilton performed the most impressive feat of government building in the history of the world. This catapulted the United States into a leading role in the world. Without Hamilton's bureaucracies, the USA would have almost certainly splintered into multiple countries.
Socrates (and Plato) gave the western canon a foundation and direction which contributed to the great liberalization and the apotheosis of individual rights.
I am sure there are some Chinese, Japanese and Indians who should make the list (Confucius?) but due to my ignorance I've left those off.
Teddy Roosevelt's encouragement of Japan's "Manifest Destiny" unleashed an Asian Holocaust.
Bismarck's uniting of the Germanic Principalities under one Greater Germany, and his defeat of the French, laid the groundwork for the dynamic nation that would dominate the 20th century. His complex government that, famously, only he could run led to WW1 and the rise of Hitler.
Karl Marx for all the obvious and regrettable reasons.
William the Conquerer changed the history of Western Europe and the UK. After conquering England, he ruled both England and Normandy. By redistributing land such that great Lords owned estates on both sides of the Channel, William ensured that the politics of France and England would remain intertwined.
Alexander Hamilton performed the most impressive feat of government building in the history of the world. This catapulted the United States into a leading role in the world. Without Hamilton's bureaucracies, the USA would have almost certainly splintered into multiple countries.
Socrates (and Plato) gave the western canon a foundation and direction which contributed to the great liberalization and the apotheosis of individual rights.
I am sure there are some Chinese, Japanese and Indians who should make the list (Confucius?) but due to my ignorance I've left those off.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:15 am to sms151t
St. Theresa of Calcutta
You cringe? She did what negotiators couldn't do. She negotiated a halt in a raging battle long enough to rescue 100 disabled, ill, and orphaned children. It was in the middle of fighting during the War in Lebanon.
When she and her nuns had successfully moved the children to safety at the negotiating area she took one of the orphans in her arms, and approached the combatants asking for a donation to help feed the child. One of the combatants spit in her hand, whereupon she replied,"Okay that's for me, what are you going to give the child?".
Do yourself a favor, study the lives of the Saints and you will be touched and inspired.
Better to light one candle, than curse the darkness.
You cringe? She did what negotiators couldn't do. She negotiated a halt in a raging battle long enough to rescue 100 disabled, ill, and orphaned children. It was in the middle of fighting during the War in Lebanon.
When she and her nuns had successfully moved the children to safety at the negotiating area she took one of the orphans in her arms, and approached the combatants asking for a donation to help feed the child. One of the combatants spit in her hand, whereupon she replied,"Okay that's for me, what are you going to give the child?".
Do yourself a favor, study the lives of the Saints and you will be touched and inspired.
Better to light one candle, than curse the darkness.
This post was edited on 1/9/24 at 7:22 am
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:26 am to Squirrelmeister
If you want to make the argument that the historical Moses isn’t real, that’s one thing. To make it about the historical Jesus just makes no sense as there are lots of mentions of him. Also, Paul talks about being the least of the disciples as he did not encounter Jesus during his life. He talks multiple times about his death and resurrection. Paul absolutely believed in a physical historical Jesus.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:28 am to LSU2ALA
quote:
To make it about the historical Jesus just makes no sense as there are lots of mentions of him
Not really.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:37 am to LSU2ALA
quote:
If you want to make the argument that the historical Moses isn’t real, that’s one thing
These same silly arguments happen day after day on here. Youre not going to move the Squirrel dude, hes a professional evangelist.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:39 am to Mo Jeaux
In addition to Biblical mentions, there are mentions by Josephus and Tacitus. If you are looking for sources written during his life, you are not really going to find them. He was a rabble rousing itenerant preacher at a time there were a lot of those. He died a disgraceful death. There is no reason anyone in power would have documented his life during his life. Just know that you would be well outside the scholarly norm saying there is no historical Jesus.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:44 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
These same silly arguments happen day after day on here. Youre not going to move the Squirrel dude, hes a professional evangelist.
I know but sometimes you have to give it a run. It’s one thing to deny the divinity of Jesus. That’s a matter of faith. To deny an actual person named Jesus who was the basis of the Jesus of the Bible is just well outside what research shows.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:47 am to LSU2ALA
quote:
To deny an actual person named Jesus who was the basis of the Jesus of the Bible is just well outside what research shows.
It isn’t really though. You neglected to mention Suetonius as one of your sources too. But have you ever actually read the statements that these sources make about Jesus? They’re hardly statements that I would say support the fact that he existed.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:51 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
and unlike Abraham, Moses, and Jesus - Cyrus was a real person who existed
Well, that’s… just, like… your opinion, man.
L
O
L
Posted on 1/9/24 at 7:52 am to Prodigal Son
You don’t think Cyrus was a real person who existed?
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:02 am to sms151t
quote:
Besides Jesus or Mohammed, who are the most influential figures in history?
I'm going with these dudes right here.
John Cockcroft and Ernest Walton.
Theologians, philosophers and all the other navel contemplators of the world had alot to say and write but those two guys up there. Well they split the atom and ushered in man's ability to cause his own extinction.
Phraseology like "Do unto others" and questions about the sound of one hand clapping don't really compare to that.
Purely from a practical standpoint, nothing changed the world like splitting the atom. Nothing.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:03 am to LSU2ALA
quote:
I know but sometimes you have to give it a run.
This has been argued ad infinitum and there is no movement on the debate.
Accept your beliefs, let that dude believe what he chooses because hes not going to budge.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:08 am to TigerRoyale
quote:
If Jesus were born today in the information age would he be anything other than an afterthought?
I'm not a Jesus disclaimer but surely his legacy would suffer by being vetted by more credible sources than goat herders and wise men.
If Jesus came back today in the exact same form we know him as. The very same Fundamentalist Christians who profess to worship him so deeply, would think him a dope smoking, sandle wearing dirty, commie hippie and beat the shite out of him.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:10 am to LSU2ALA
LSU2Ala has put together a good
list. Impressive.
list. Impressive.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:13 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
There is no corroborating evidence of Moses’ existence.
And if the Left has their way there will be no historical record of the extraordinary results of a Constitutional Republic based on God-given Individual Rights. They are in the process of wiping it clean.
It is no stretch to believe that a Totalitarian, Pagan culture such as the Egyptians would do the same. No way they allow a serious defeat and embarrassment be an affront to their power and/or their gods.
I figured you'd jump on my analytical post above, SM. Ha, you slacking?
One can rationally challenge the existence of said 'Influencers', but challenging the validity of the IDEAS is really the essence of whole brouhaha. It is Jesus' IDEA that ensured His prominence and dominance as the top Influencer, because His Gospel was based on Mercy and Love. Something inspired and motivated those verified and original contemporaries (Disciples, Church leadership and brethren, etc.) that went to their horrific deaths for said Idea/Jesus. One "can tell a tree by the fruit that it bears".
It is highly probable that Humanity either embraces Jesus' Idea or goes the Fermi Paradox route. As prophesied. I think we are close to knowing the Truth.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:14 am to TrueTiger
No love for Guttenberg? Marconi?
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:15 am to Pandy Fackler
quote:
If Jesus came back today in the exact same form we know him as. The very same Fundamentalist Christians who profess to worship him so deeply, would think him a dope smoking, sandle wearing dirty, commie hippie and beat the shite out of him.
You have the media concept of fundamentalists down pat.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:22 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
If Jesus came back today in the exact same form we know him as. The very same Fundamentalist Christians who profess to worship him so deeply, would think him a dope smoking, sandle wearing dirty, commie hippie and beat the shite out of him.
"Smite the shepherd and the flock scatters". There is no doubt that many Believers fall short of Vision. That is THE reason that they embrace the mercy and hope for the promised return of Jesus. Not to mention that Satan and his Angels, appearing as "angels of light", infiltrate the Church in order to deceive, corrupt and discredit. Hell, Saul Alinsky was smart enough to do that in service to his Marxist ideology.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 8:32 am to Zarkinletch416
quote:
St. Theresa of Calcutta
You cringe? She did what negotiators couldn't do. She negotiated a halt in a raging battle long enough to rescue 100 disabled, ill, and orphaned children. It was in the middle of fighting during the War in Lebanon.
When she and her nuns had successfully moved the children to safety at the negotiating area she took one of the orphans in her arms, and approached the combatants asking for a donation to help feed the child. One of the combatants spit in her hand, whereupon she replied,"Okay that's for me, what are you going to give the child?".
All of that is very noble, but the saving of 100 lives is nothing in the scale of this discussion. Napoleon spent lives at such a rate that his defeat would have saved so many that y your logic Wellington should be on the list.
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