- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Besides Jesus or Mohammed, who are the most influential figures in history?
Posted on 1/11/24 at 10:40 pm to Squirrelmeister
Posted on 1/11/24 at 10:40 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
You gave no evidence because there isn’t any
Your complete dismissal was not unexpected- which speaks to my point. If you set the evidence bar as high for, say, that Moses was in fact a fictional character, as you set it for the historical accuracy of the Biblical account of Moses- then you would, at best, be agnostic regarding the matter. There are highly intelligent people, on both sides, who have dedicated their lives to these matters. While I think it is only natural to favor one side or the other (based on one’s presuppositions), I think it is unfair to dismiss such arguments as though they are completely unfounded and ridiculous. Furthermore, I think such behavior is all too often rooted in fear of being wrong, rather the confidence of being right. I see this behavior on both sides, and it is usually accompanied by intellectual dishonesty. While I truly believe that my position is true, I’m willing to admit that I might be wrong- because I rely on the interpretation of evidence by fallible human beings (myself especially).
quote:
It’s sad that you continue to try to equate science with faith
I’m not. I’m merely pointing out that both require faith. Faith is not exclusively a religious term. It is belief- plan and simple. When a scientist formulates a hypothesis, he begins with a belief. He then tests that belief and makes the necessary adjustments. To even begin to do science, one must have faith that the laws of nature will remain consistent in the future- which is something that no scientific experiment can prove- as the future is not observable.
quote:
science is the “antithesis of faith—it requires that all assumptions be questioned, that all proposed explanations be based on demonstrable evidence, and that all hypotheses be testable and potentially falsifiable”. While faith is the belief without evidence, in this case the belief in magic.
Science has its limitations. It can only measure the material world- in the present (that which can be observed). I sincerely hope that you have experienced true love. (Pro tip: having children will, more often than not, solidify this experience) Can love be scientifically measured? How much does it weigh? Where does it come from? What are its dimensions? Where was it before you had it? Where does it go when you lose it? I suspect you will answer with some snarky comments about scientific research regarding neurons and chemical reactions and such, but said research does very little to define the experience. A reductionist/materialist explanation does nothing to satisfy the curiosity of the transcendent and immaterial pillars of our existence and experience. Though, I’m sure you have faith that science will one day provide sufficient answers to these questions (if you care at all- I sincerely hope you do). But, I believe that these questions will be better suited to the disciplines of philosophy, psychology and theology. Logic and reason are the preferred means of discerning matters of the human condition- though medicine may often be of complimentary value. Science without philosophy is like the guy at the gym who always skips leg day. Incomplete.
quote:
If you applied the same level of scrutiny to the tablet found a Ashurbanipal‘s library, then you would have to consider that the earliest Greek manuscripts we have of the gospels dating to around 300-400CE means that they must’ve been written about 300-400CE.
I know what you mean. And, I agree. I’m more than willing to admit my bias. I’m just trying to point out your blind spot- which is that you seem not to be aware that you also are biased by your presuppositional worldview. It is the lens through which you view everything, yet you don’t seem to realize it.
quote:
there’s also zero evidence there is a god.
There is evidence. Whether or not one interprets that evidence to lead to the conclusion that God exists, or overlooks it entirely, will be determined by one’s inherent bias.
Mundane Example: I open the refrigerator, searching for the ketchup. When I don’t immediately see it, I think to myself “She (my wife- no pics) hasn’t been to the store in a while. We must be out of ketchup.” I tell her we’re out of ketchup. I’m convinced of it. How could I be wrong? I know what ketchup looks like. And this refrigerator has no ketchup in it. While I’m standing there, thinking about she failed to go to the store- she walks up, moves a couple of things around, and hands me the ketchup. I’ll be damned- it was there all along. In this example, I wish there hadn’t been any ketchup- because now I’m wrong and I look like an idiot. More importantly, this is a common example of how we can look for things, that are right in front of us- and be completely convinced that they are not there.
Posted on 1/13/24 at 9:39 am to Prodigal Son
quote:
If you set the evidence bar as high for, say, that Moses was in fact a fictional character, as you set it for the historical accuracy of the Biblical account of Moses- then you would, at best, be agnostic regarding the matter.
Good morning PS,
My issue is that it’s not just that we haven’t found evidence of the biblical story of the exodus of 600,000 Israelites outnumbered the native Egyptians and all leaving at the same time. Having no evidence at all would make one agnostic- I agree with you on that point, but it would not provide a reason to believe. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. For instance, if you assert the moon is made of Swiss cheese, I can reject that assertion without having to provide evidence that it isn’t made of cheese if you don’t provide evidence to back your claim.
But we aren’t just agnostic on the exodus issue. We do have evidence that it never happened. The archaeological record of the time indicates that a large population of people did not leave Egypt nor did a large population enter Canaan. Egyptian records indicate the population did not change, and that their food consumption and storage did not change. The Egyptians never lost their entire army and in fact conducted military campaigns conquering hundreds of cities and it is confirmed in Egyptian records and in archaeology. Archaeological records in Canaan show there to be a constant population of genetic Canaanites (Israelites and Jews of that time period were Canaanites). There’s no evidence of the Canaanites/Israelites suddenly adopting Egyptian customs, language, writing, architecture, pottery, or anything else that would show up due to 400 years of living in Egypt.
We do have strong evidence of a mass Hyksos population being kicked out of Egypt around the time the biblical exodus was supposed to take place. Weird. Hyksos expelled from Egypt
Archeologists have evidence also of the sea peoples invading Egypt, Egypt expelling them to Canaan (because Egypt ruled Canaan from about 1450BCE to 1100BCE… during the time the Bible says the Israelites escaped Egyptian rule…). Sea peoples forcibly settled in Canaan by Egypt became known as the Philistines and the Tribe of Dan. We also have strong evidence to back up the Assyrian invasion and the Babylonian invasion as described in the Bible. Archaeologists can dig up all the evidence of the battles and wars and such. What they can’t find is any evidence of a post-exodus Israelite invasion and wars to take their area of Canaan… because they were already there, because the exodus is just a myth.
We also have many problems and contradictions in exodus that would warrant outright rejection. How many times is the Egyptian army killed? Hell, how many times is the livestock killed during the plagues? 4 times at least.
The circumstantial evidence that Moses is a historical character is very strong, as I previously explained most of his characteristics are nearly identical to earlier stories of Sargon, Snefru, and Hammurabi.
Are there some historical elements to the exodus story? Sure. Egypt existed, and so did the pharaoh, Nile, Reed Sea, Jordan, and Sinai. That doesn’t make the story true. All evidence points to Exodus being a myth. We don’t just not have evidence of the Biblical Exodus, but rather we have strong evidence against the myth.
quote:
I think it is unfair to dismiss such arguments as though they are completely unfounded and ridiculous.
They (exodus historical accuracy) aren’t ridiculous. Many people have been brainwashed into believing it without evidence through no fault of their own. They can be dismissed after a thorough review of the lack of evidence for the biblical exodus and the extremely strong evidence against the myth. You’ve got to want to know the truth and actually do your own research to come to grips with the reality.
Science is the antithesis of faith. There’s belief that can be tested by science as you mention, but faith is belief without evidence and despite evidence to the contrary.
If our little discussions help you to increase your own faith and that makes you happy, then that’s great.
I look forward to discussing if a Jesus is god or not (according to the Bible, a rehash of the first council of Nicaea) and maybe a discussion about heretics like Marcion, Tertullian, and Origen. I’d like to move on from Moses.
Posted on 1/13/24 at 11:45 am to Squirrelmeister
I’m going to get back to you later. Lots of activities going on with my kids this weekend. I just wanted you to know that the downvote is not from me. Enjoy your weekend SM!
Posted on 1/13/24 at 1:01 pm to Squirrelmeister
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Posted on 1/17/24 at 8:27 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
I look forward to discussing if a Jesus is god or not (according to the Bible, a rehash of the first council of Nicaea) and maybe a discussion about heretics like Marcion, Tertullian, and Origen. I’d like to move on from Moses.
Sure. Fire away. I look forward to finding alternative solutions to the problems you will present. Though, I think it’s necessary to point out a couple of things in closing of our Moses/Exodus discussion.
I agree with you, that there is no conclusive extra biblical evidence that proves the existence of Moses or the biblical account of the Exodus. What I contend, is that there is a significant amount of circumstantial evidence that may lend support to the theory that the biblical accounts are at least plausible. Of course, this evidence requires interpretation, and, interpretation is inherently biased by worldview.
Which leads me back to Pascal’s wager- not as means to determine one’s position, but as a way to describe it. Because I have “wagered” that God exists, and carefully weighed the consequences of being wrong, I am more willing to admit that I may be wrong. I can afford to be wrong. Conversely, the atheist, upon careful consideration of the consequences of being wrong- is forced into a position of intolerance for, and blind dismissal of, any and all evidence that may lend credence to the opposing view. The atheist cannot afford to be wrong. Therefore, as long as he holds this position, this underlying principle will inevitably shape and color the lens through which he interprets evidence and draws conclusions.
Seeing that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of a space less/timeless/immaterial God, philosophy is a stalemate, and history and archaeology are quite limited and subject to interpretation- either position requires a leap of faith.
All of this is not intended to bring you to belief (though I pray for it), that honor belongs solely to God. My intention is to show that, given the lack of evidence for the belief that there is no God, requires as much (or perhaps more) faith than does the belief in the Christian God. It is often said, by atheists, that belief in God is just a comfort- a lie that we tell ourselves to be able to cope with life and death. Well, that cuts both ways. What’s more comforting? The thought of ceasing to exist upon death, or spending eternity in Hell?
I apologize for rambling on, but I felt that it was necessary to elucidate the perceived motives behind your atheistic evangelism- especially before you begin to question the deity of Christ.
We can move on if you like. I’m sure you will raise some valid concerns, and I’m sure I will find rational, logical and biblical solutions and explanations that have been available for centuries.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 7:25 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
I agree with you, that there is no conclusive extra biblical evidence that proves the existence of Moses or the biblical account of the Exodus. What I contend, is that there is a significant amount of circumstantial evidence that may lend support to the theory that the biblical accounts are at least plausible. Of course, this evidence requires interpretation, and, interpretation is inherently biased by worldview.
I’ve said on here I cannot will myself to believe in something for which little to no evidence exists, and for which overwhelming evidence against it does exist. I can’t hypnotize myself to believe something just because I would rather believe that it is true. Other people apparently can. If it makes you happy and you can do that, and if the delusions don’t hurt anyone, then maybe it is a good thing.
quote:
Which leads me back to Pascal’s wager- not as means to determine one’s position, but as a way to describe it. Because I have “wagered” that God exists, and carefully weighed the consequences of being wrong, I am more willing to admit that I may be wrong. I can afford to be wrong.
According to the internet (it’s always right) there are about 4,000 world religions. Christianity makes up about 30% of the world population (that includes Catholics and the lunatics like Presbyterians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc.). Of those Christian groups, there’s about 33,000 documented denominations that hold different beliefs about the nature of God, Jesus, and the path to salvation. In your Pascal’s wager, you and I are about equal in terms of our “picking the right religion and avoiding hell” chances. According to our Catholic priest, you are doomed for hell, and all those Hindus and Muslims that are brainwashed like you and were raised in a religion they are all hell-bound too.
quote:
Seeing that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of a space less/timeless/immaterial God, philosophy is a stalemate, and history and archaeology are quite limited and subject to interpretation- either position requires a leap of faith.
Would you require a leap of faith that my Flying Spaghetti Monster isn’t real? What if my FSM is the correct god? I really don’t think we are using the same definition of “faith”. I’m not sure what you are using.
quote:
given the lack of evidence for the belief that there is no God, requires as much (or perhaps more) faith than does the belief in the Christian God.
Faith is a positive belief, without provable falsifiable evidence. There is just as much lack of evidence of no god as there is lack of evidence there is a god. A lack of a belief by definition cannot require faith (a type of belief sans evidence).
quote:
What’s more comforting? The thought of ceasing to exist upon death, or spending eternity in Hell?
Neither, but only one is a realistic outcome.
quote:
perceived motives behind your atheistic evangelism-
I like learning new things. I’ve been hitting the Bible hard for the last few years and reading a bunch of books. I genuinely like the subject and I find it fascinating, and I want to share what I’ve learned and what I know. I do think it will be a net positive for people and society to cast off their superstitions and to make the best of our lives rather than waiting for imaginary eternal life. It’s what the Jews literally do to this day. Their ancient religion didn’t have an afterlife. A large proportion (not sure if majority or not) of Jews to this day don’t believe in an afterlife, and that includes many Rabbis (I’ve read material from several Rabbis on this subject). Maybe that’s why the Jews have been so successful despite being persecuted? They realize they have one life and they’ve got to make the best of it.
quote:
We can move on if you like. I’m sure you will raise some valid concerns, and I’m sure I will find rational, logical and biblical solutions and explanations that have been available for centuries.
I like our discussions PS. I’m sure we will have more. Hope you have a great evening.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 8:47 pm to LSU2ALA
quote:
Abraham, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Locke, Jefferson, Madison, Einstein, Oppenheimer, and so many more.
I would add Genghis and Berke Khan as being primarily responsible for the cultural exchange from China to Western Europe after they, let’s say put an end, to the religious wars in the Middle East and opened it up for trade. Their descendants also brought the black plague to Europe which inadvertently destroyed the serf system. I realize they are a weird pick, because there isn’t a lot of Mongolian thought that undergirds modern life, but they provided the soul for it to grow in
Posted on 1/22/24 at 8:57 pm to MAADFACTS
Ah hadn’t realized this thread had devolved into another debate between squirrelmeister and the evangelicals. I’d say that sort is sort of irrelevant to whether or not Jesus and Muhammad are influential in world history, unless you want to make some argument like Paul and Augustine are more responsible for Christian thought but at that point you’re just trying to prove how clever you are.
The God argument is a waste of time because the atheist will demand irrefutable proof in the scientific sense, and never question why this is the only sense that proof is acceptable in. No one lives their lives by reason alone. Religious people on the other hand had their faith formed by experience and intuition (or grace as it is commonly known and freely given) and then use reason to support the conclusions they have already come too, which makes the reasoning seem suspect to someone who intuits that existence is meaningless. There is no way to bridge the gap unless, the atheist has a dramatic conversion experience or a profound spiritual experience to a faith and then needs to contextualize that experience in a faith or the religious person loses their faith or sees cracks in their foundations through experience and then suddenly their reasoning for believing what they previously believed isn’t enough. And yet religious people continue to try and debate faith into nonbelievers and nonbelievers try and debate the faith out of believers, and all of it is so tedious to anyone who is currently in college; and yet we go on, because the one thing everyone can agree on is that it’s fun to argue
The God argument is a waste of time because the atheist will demand irrefutable proof in the scientific sense, and never question why this is the only sense that proof is acceptable in. No one lives their lives by reason alone. Religious people on the other hand had their faith formed by experience and intuition (or grace as it is commonly known and freely given) and then use reason to support the conclusions they have already come too, which makes the reasoning seem suspect to someone who intuits that existence is meaningless. There is no way to bridge the gap unless, the atheist has a dramatic conversion experience or a profound spiritual experience to a faith and then needs to contextualize that experience in a faith or the religious person loses their faith or sees cracks in their foundations through experience and then suddenly their reasoning for believing what they previously believed isn’t enough. And yet religious people continue to try and debate faith into nonbelievers and nonbelievers try and debate the faith out of believers, and all of it is so tedious to anyone who is currently in college; and yet we go on, because the one thing everyone can agree on is that it’s fun to argue
Posted on 1/24/24 at 5:51 pm to MAADFACTS
quote:
The God argument is a waste of time because the atheist will demand irrefutable proof in the scientific sense, and never question why this is the only sense that proof is acceptable in.
MAADFACTS,
It’s not just that, but it is that there is the overwhelming preponderance of evidence that what is stated in the Bible is factually inaccurate or outright false. For example, we know through science that our species evolved from earlier species (not made out of clay) and that the earth is a sphere rotating in space about its axis revolving about the sun (not a flat disk supported by pillars with a glass dome on top holding back the water in outer space).
Posted on 1/31/24 at 7:59 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
I’ve said on here I cannot will myself to believe in something for which little to no evidence exists, and for which overwhelming evidence against it does exist.
Everything we believe is what we will ourselves to believe; some beliefs we hold with a higher degree of certainty than others- but, belief in and of itself is a free-will decision.
I’d love for you to introduce an unpack your most compelling arguments (one at a time) against the existence of God and the veracity of Christianity. God first. After all, if it can be established that there is no God, then all religions are truly meaningless.
quote:
I like our discussions PS.
As do I, and as we should.
Edit: Maybe start a new thread for each argument? Up to you. It may be easier to stay on topic that way.
This post was edited on 1/31/24 at 8:08 am
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:29 am to sms151t
Stalin. The world as we currently understand it in terms of security and trade are because of him.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:32 am to TrueTiger
quote:
1 Jesus
2 Napoleon
3 Muhammad
4 William Shakespeare
5 Abraham Lincoln
6 George Washington
7 Adolf Hitler
8 Aristotle
9 Alexander the Great
10 Thomas Jefferson
3 American Presidents in the Top 10,while Genghis Khan Stalin didn't make the list.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:35 am to OchoDedos
quote:
Dwight D Eisenhower
Most accomplished man in American History:
Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces
Chief of Staff of the US Army
Supreme Commander of NATO
President of the United State of America
General of the Army
Posted on 1/31/24 at 9:06 am to jrodLSUke
quote:Misdiagnosed on the golf course (Colorado, I think). White House doctor told him it was indigestions. Suffered major heart attack and was never really the same. Don't think I made any of that up. Been a while since I read it. "I Like Ike"
Most accomplished man in American History:
Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces
Chief of Staff of the US Army
Supreme Commander of NATO
President of the United State of America
General of the Army
Posted on 1/31/24 at 9:42 am to sms151t
Just Jesus and Mohammad Ali. You are correct.
Popular
Back to top

1






