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re: Average yearly pension for a retired NYC fireman is $171k/year.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:02 pm to sparkinator
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:02 pm to sparkinator
quote:
Obviously with the current budget problems, many cites and towns can’t afford it. They have to pay less or make cuts elsewhere.
The private sector has to make those decisions every day.
Police and fire fighters are needs, not wants
You have any idea what that would do to insurance costs? Property values? Libertardians who claim we can privatize those services more cost effectively are living in fantasy land, especially in regards to the fire department. Having a private fireman is all fine and dandy until the building next to you, who doesnt, catches on fire and spreads it your place.
2
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:13 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
Police and fire fighters are needs, not wants
Then you cut back on your wants.
At the end if the day we have to commit to fiscal responsibility. Even the government. If we want to remain solvent.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:18 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
Police and fire fighters are needs, not wants
That doesn't mean we need to overpay for their efforts.
quote:
You have any idea what that would do to insurance costs? Property values? Libertardians who claim we can privatize those services more cost effectively are living in fantasy land
Not by choice (I live in an unincorporated area) - but I pay for private fire protection and the service is solid, and is reflected as such in my property insurance.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:22 pm to Bass Tiger
I think sometimes we may be asking the wrong questions. The thing I'd ask you to ponder is why are you worried about that and not concerned at all with the complete lack of pensions in the private sector now.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:32 pm to Powerman
quote:
I think sometimes we may be asking the wrong questions. The thing I'd ask you to ponder is why are you worried about that and not concerned at all with the complete lack of pensions in the private sector now.
Start a thread on it and see the responses.
This one seems to be pretty pertinent and popular. It’s up to 7 pages.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:39 pm to Mushroom1968
quote:
That’s the thing, nobody is going to work fdny making $68k a year or whatever with a 401k retirement and 4% match It’s just not going to happen.
Sure. But let’s take the pension away. Here’s my suggestion for high danger government jobs. Offer an incredible retirement program, something like 2 for 1 up to 20%. So every $1 the employee puts in the government puts in $2 up to 20% of their pay so 30% total. They can put 30% into retirement by only giving 10%.
Budget that in. If you can make the budget work, awesome.
The problem with these pensions is guys are fooling the system. They are getting $100k base pay and the dimwits are budgeting that, all the while pulling $140k after OT and other bonus pay and that kills the budgets.
This post was edited on 8/15/25 at 6:41 pm
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:39 pm to roadGator
quote:
I think CALPERS in CA is almost up to $300B in unfunded retirement liabilities.
All of these states are doing this because they think Uncle Sugar will pay the tab when the bill comes due. They don't think DC has the balls to tell them No.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:41 pm to DesScorp
quote:
All of these states are doing this because they think Uncle Sugar will pay the tab when the bill comes due. They don't think DC has the balls to tell them No.
Nah. They are doing it because they can today. They know by the time the shite hits the fan and the money becomes due, they will be long gone and it’s someone else’s problem
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:42 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
Anyone collecting the 170k pay check right now has more than earned it
Agreed. Those sumbitches earn their keep. They deserves it more than politicians and I don't really GAF because I don't live in New York. Those guys are elite though and the job is not without risk. They really do put their lives on the line. Don't forget 9/11. Plenty more on a smaller scale. I think they deserve every penny.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:43 pm to Powerman
quote:
I think sometimes we may be asking the wrong questions. The thing I'd ask you to ponder is why are you worried about that and not concerned at all with the complete lack of pensions in the private sector now.
Because a good pension like this isn’t financially feasible. The government will come in and bail them out at some point.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:45 pm to baldona
quote:
Sure. But let’s take the pension away. Here’s my suggestion for high danger government jobs. Offer an incredible retirement program, something like 2 for 1 up to 20%. So every $1 the employee puts in the government puts in $2 up to 20% of their pay so 30% total. They can put 30% into retirement by only giving 10%.
FFs do contribute a lot to their own pensions, don’t forget that. You have to be able to retire relatively young, most FFs won’t make administration. Your retirement isn’t going to enable FFs who are mid 40s and early 50s to retire. You don’t want 50 plus year old FFs trying to rescue you. It’s not always easy for people who get to say 48-50 year old and body breaks down, forced into retirement to just start up another random career. Your retirement advice, very few if any would go for that. Maybe in a podunk town, but not in a big or busy city
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:47 pm to baldona
quote:
Because a good pension like this isn’t financially feasible. The government will come in and bail them out at some point.
No argument there. But there are almost zero pensions left in the private sector.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 6:56 pm to roadGator
quote:
I think CALPERS in CA is almost up to $300B in unfunded retirement liabilities.
I believe this will be the first wave of issues that cause a traumatic financial crisis in the US. Someone should have gotten CALPERS reigned in years ago.
Their private equity positions are going to haunted them for years if not decades.
Posted on 8/15/25 at 7:39 pm to sparkinator
quote:
Then you cut back on your wants.
At the end if the day we have to commit to fiscal responsibility. Even the government. If we want to remain solvent.
More than on board with that
Im just saying there are a lot better ways to do so, than blaming NYC fire fighters for the fiscal crisis, they make lower middle class income most career and retire with a middle class pension.They dont get SS and they dont get a 401k match
If you made 150k (middle class in NYC) a year for 40 years, you would have 3.6 million with a standard 401k match when you retired. That would pay about 260k a year in interest to live off, and you would still have social security on top of that
A lot of yall dont seem to grasp how big the wage and COL difference is in NYC compared to almost everywhere else in the country
Posted on 8/15/25 at 7:46 pm to SaintsTiger
quote:
Oh by the way don't hold municipal bonds either. At some point mom and pop won't be able to even cover the interest much less return of principal. Politicians aren't getting less corrupt, greedy, wasteful either. The merry go round will stop all of a sudden and people will get hurt.
This.
There are 100 trillion + in unfinished pensions liabilities = DANGER WILL ROBINSON!…DANGER!
Posted on 8/15/25 at 7:55 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:I realize just fine. Again, the question is, how are the ACTUAL TAXPAYERS doing compared to the government workers they are funding???
A lot of yall dont seem to grasp how big the wage and COL difference is in NYC compared to almost everywhere else in the country
Also......
quote:I assume you're basing this on the assumption that the individual maxed out a 6% match in their 401K?
If you made 150k (middle class in NYC) a year for 40 years, you would have 3.6 million with a standard 401k match when you retired. That would pay about 260k a year in interest to live off, and you would still have social security on top of that
If so, then assuming they STILL save their 6% annually, then conservatively speaking, they'd have about $1.2M in the bank. Which, would be on TOP of the 171K pension. So, not really all that different. But, more importantly, if they did NOT save it, that means they got to have an extra 9K annually to spend because they had this guaranteed money at the end.
Something almost none of their taxpaying peers get. This, on TOP of the fact that in all likelihood, they have far superior health care coverage for less money too!
This post was edited on 8/15/25 at 7:56 pm
Posted on 8/15/25 at 7:59 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
I assume you're basing this on the assumption that the individual maxed out a 6% match in their 401K?
4.6% match (I used average), and 8% annual return
quote:
I realize just fine. Again, the question is, how are the ACTUAL TAXPAYERS doing compared to the government workers they are funding???
Taxpayers and fire fighters get screwed by the current model. The better model would be to pay them a more competitive salary (i.e. 20k more than they currently make) while they work, 401k match, and no jumbo pension. They would get to benefit from compound interest, we would not be playing catchup on compensation by kicking the can down the road
quote:
all likelihood, they have far superior health care coverage for less money too!
They should get good health insurance. Were asking them to run into buildings that are on fire that have asbestos and all sorts of nasty shite in it.
Privatizing retirement is good. Lot of people on this thread seem to think first responders should get paid and retire like entry level HR workers
Posted on 8/15/25 at 8:14 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
The better model would be to pay them a more competitive salary
What would be a competitive salary for a NYC firefighter 10 years into his career?
Posted on 8/15/25 at 8:30 pm to David_DJS
quote:
What would be a competitive salary for a NYC firefighter 10 years into his career?
Really, starting the base salary off higher would do wonders.
$100k start salary
5% annual raise first 10 years
2.5% annual raise after
After 25 years, that would look like a $236,000 salary. Again, this is NYC specific. 4% 401k match, no pension
Thats a solid, middle class job, as it should be, and the taxpayer doesnt get screwed with massive pension liabilities
Posted on 8/15/25 at 8:36 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:Close enough for discussion sake
4.6% match (I used average), and 8% annual return
quote:Again, compare this to what the typical taxpayer gets paid in terms of salary plus benefits because, I'm of the mind that the people PULLING the cart shouldn't be doing worse than the ones IN the cart. Look, I know firefighter is an important job. I love firefighters. But, their job isn't any harder than roughneck nor any more dangerous. (just an example, don't get wrapped up in one example)
Taxpayers and fire fighters get screwed by the current model. The better model would be to pay them a more competitive salary (i.e. 20k more than they currently make) while they work, 401k match, and no jumbo pension. They would get to benefit from compound interest, we would not be playing catchup on compensation by kicking the can down the road
quote:Yeah. And, their are people crawling around in sewers. Working in oil fields. Working in coal mines. Look, the job is obviously challenging, but lets not deify the dudes.
They should get good health insurance. Were asking them to run into buildings that are on fire that have asbestos and all sorts of nasty shite in it.
quote:No. I simply don't think they, AS GOVERNMENT WORKERS, should be doing better than roughly similar level private workers.
Privatizing retirement is good. Lot of people on this thread seem to think first responders should get paid and retire like entry level HR workers
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