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re: Are drivers licenses an example of government overreach?
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:01 pm to 4cubbies
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:01 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Norway's success is attributed to a rehabilitation-focused approach to incarceration, emphasizing reintegration into society.
What is the demographics of Norway?
Hint: Multiculturalism is not their strength.
1
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:06 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Norway boasts one of the lowest recidivism rates globally, with about 20% of released inmates reoffending within two years and 25% within five years. This is significantly lower than recidivism rates in the U.S., which can be as high as 70%. Norway's success is attributed to a rehabilitation-focused approach to incarceration, emphasizing reintegration into society.
I thought you said punishment didn't benefit society? Clearly these people were punished, no?
For the sake of discussion, did this study or attirbution of success take into acount demogrpahic differences and the willigness of different demographics to participate in and accept rehabilitation attempts? I'm guessing not?
Also, what were the rates prio to this shift in policy? ETA: I see that now. it is a very nice drop, definitely worthy of more study. Curious what other factors they looked into first before coming up with their attribution.
quote:
We would have to try to find out.
We don't currently have rehab programs for criminals? Link?
This post was edited on 6/12/25 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:14 pm to BugAC
quote:
So, to clarify, you got a ticket for speeding in a school zone and you think that's government overreach?
No, my ticket is purely a revenue generation tactic and has nothing to do with safety or anything else. I did not start this thread because I got a ticket.
This thread was inspired from an academic conversation I was a part of about high-powered motorbikes, which one doesn't need special permission from the government to purchase or drive in this country.
quote:
When in a school zone, everyone knows not to go over the speed limit. It's for protection of children that can dart out in front of cars.
Many of the school zone times in New Orleans don't even align with the school schedule. All school zones are from from 7:00 AM to 9:00 AM and 2:45 PM to 4:45 PM. I taught at a school years ago that started at 9:30 and ended at 4:30. The school zone was still the 7-9 and 2:45-4:45.
The school zone I got a ticket for driving 24 in is a private elementary school that doesn't have a bus service. Every kid is driven to school and picked up in a private vehicle. It's just a money grab.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:16 pm to BugAC
quote:
What is the demographics of Norway?
How do you explain this:
quote:
In the 1990’s, Norway had a problem. Roughly 70% of all released prisoners recommitted crimes within two years of release. That rate is nearly equal to the recidivism rate in the United States today.
Was there a dramatic demographic shift in Norway post-1999?
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:18 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
For the sake of discussion, did this study or attirbution of success take into acount demogrpahic differences and the willigness of different demographics to participate in and accept rehabilitation attempts? I'm guessing not?
I'll have to research to understand if there was a dramatic shift in the demographics of Norway that coincided with their shift to rehabilitative detention.
My hunch is that there was not an exodus of white people from Norway that led to lower recidivism.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:24 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
My hunch is that there was not an exodus of white people from Norway that led to lower recidivism.
wow what a swing and a miss.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:32 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Humans have the right to travel freely without permission from the state.
It doesn’t require a license travel. It does to operate a 3,000 lb piece of machinery though.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:32 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
I'm confused by your question about the demographics. How are they relevant to the dramatic decrease in recidivism in Norway?
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:32 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Why didn't you attempt to make a better argument?
The true government overreach in this situation is taxes. Taxes are taken from the individual under threat of violence and great livelihood harm, and the government acts as a zero value add middle-man to give our money to whomever is politically expedient/donated to their campaign. Due to the government acting as a middle-man, they then again over extend their powers to act like they built the roads, ergo they have the "right" to control who uses the roads, which they then mandate a citizen has to take a test, purchase a "driver's license", and in most states are forced to purchase car insurance (another government overreach). All of this while mandating emissions (overreach), charging for non-one time registration fees (another overreach and tax), and forcing the citizens to pay fuel excise taxes to power their vehicle.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:35 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I'm confused by your question about the demographics. How are they relevant to the dramatic decrease in recidivism in Norway?
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:39 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
Are you implying that because Norway's population is mostly white, rehabilitation worked to reduce recidivism there and would not work if we tried it in the USA?
This post was edited on 6/12/25 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:41 pm to Jcorye1
quote:
The true government overreach in this situation is taxes. Taxes are taken from the individual under threat of violence and great livelihood harm, and the government acts as a zero value add middle-man to give our money to whomever is politically expedient/donated to their campaign. Due to the government acting as a middle-man, they then again over extend their powers to act like they built the roads, ergo they have the "right" to control who uses the roads, which they then mandate a citizen has to take a test, purchase a "driver's license", and in most states are forced to purchase car insurance (another government overreach). All of this while mandating emissions (overreach), charging for non-one time registration fees (another overreach and tax), and forcing the citizens to pay fuel excise taxes to power their vehicle.
Bravo.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:54 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Are you implying that because Norway's population is mostly white, rehabilitation worked to reduce recidivism there and would not work if we tried it in the USA?
For starters, your assumption that race is the only factor in my questions is well, par for the course.
Secondly, I'm not implying anything. If we are to accept at face value that the driving force behind the rate drop is in fact the change in policies, we would have to equalize the data across all other variables to see if the change atually made the difference or if there was another factor involved, which i'm asking if these studies actually did that. There are plenty of other factors that go into the liklihood of a criminal committing additional crimes on release.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 1:08 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I'll have to research to understand if there was a dramatic shift in the demographics of Norway that coincided with their shift to rehabilitative detention.
My hunch is that there was not an exodus of white people from Norway that led to lower recidivism.
This is a logic failure. He didn't suggest that a homogenous population like Norway's guaranteed low recidivism rates. He suggested that a homogenous population like Norway's made is possible.
It's logic flaws like that that make you erroneously conclude the things you do.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 1:13 pm to UptownJoeBrown
quote:And this post ends the entire premise of the thread.
They already have a case on this. You have a right to movement but you don’t have a right to operate a vehicle on a public road.
There are no restrictions if you operate on private land such as a 10,000 acre ranch. You can drive at any age, no insurance (affidavit of non use on a public road), no inspections. You just can’t take it into town.
If OP still argues that DL's are an overreach. Tell that to the 89 year old driving with cataracts and dementia that drives head on into someone because he did not get an eye exam.
OR
Someone losing their brakes going down a mountain S bend. (Inspections)
Then start a thread on STOP signs and red lights being an overreach, people should just know when to STOP.
This post was edited on 6/12/25 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 6/12/25 at 1:14 pm to moneyg
quote:
He didn't suggest that a homogenous population like Norway's guaranteed low recidivism rates. He suggested that a homogenous population like Norway's made is possible.
Hell, its not even solely about how homogenous they are. They would statistically be less homogenous now than they were in the '90s. It is worth knowing what the prison breakdown is then vs now, as obviously that is a factor in all this.
However, types of crimes incarcerated for, avg age of the convicted and avg. age upon relase, are just a few factors that if we aren't equalizing when analyzing the potential impact of the policy, then all that is being done is saying because a policy change was made, that had to be the reason. That alone is a fallacy.
Also, coincidentally, Norway has had some of the highest uses of solitary confinement in developed countries and many out there have questioned their excessive use of it. Maybe that is that real reason. Who knows.
This post was edited on 6/12/25 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 6/12/25 at 1:15 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
We would have to try to find out.
But you won’t be housing them and, as you so put it, wouldn’t want a halfway house Nextdoor.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 1:17 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
No, my ticket is purely a revenue generation tactic and has nothing to do with safety or anything else. I did not start this thread because I got a ticket.
But it did improve the safety of the school road.
As you so eloquently put it, you will no longer travel in front of that school next year.
You broke law. You paid fine. You changed behavior.
Good job not understanding operant conditioning.
Will you admit you were wrong?
This post was edited on 6/12/25 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 6/12/25 at 1:20 pm to beerJeep
quote:
But it did improve the safety of the school road.
As you so eloquently put it, you will no longer travel in front of that school next year.
You broke law. You paid fine. You changed behavior.
Its amazing how well this one played out
I bet there would have been an opportunity to go to traffic school as well, if pursued. So, we have a punitive option and a rehabilitative option available. Odd that the punitative one was the one picked.
Posted on 6/12/25 at 1:37 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Odd that you would rail about drivers' licenses where everyone that drives must have one but not say something about overreach with income taxes when only 50% of the people are hit with them?
Are drivers licenses an example of government overreach?
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