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re: $572 Million Decision Against J&J in Opioid Trial - Why we can't have anything nice
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:00 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:00 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
$572 Million Decision Against J&J in Opioid Trial - Why we can't have anything nice
Kudos to the plaintiffs attorneys. I'd call this an impressive victory.
0
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:01 pm to OKtiger
quote:When was this?
You laugh now but when a drug company comes to a doctor's office, they are relying on that rep to give them information about the drug. Drug companies cited one study that was a paragraph long which stated opioids were not addictive and then incentivized any doctor they could to prescribe them.
But you can frick right off if you knew way back when they came out if they were addictive or not. No one did except the drug companies.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:01 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:And this is why medicine costs so much.
Irrelevant when it comes to who has the primary duty to warn of negative side-effects of a product.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:11 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Opioid
Got to be outlawed. Seems nobody knows how to prescribe or use them. I'm told opioids are best administered by pain management physicians as they have the best handle on benefits and risks. But if most everyone gets addicted to them, outlaw them.
Also, I was prescribed hydrocodone for frozen shoulder chronic pain and physical therapy. I never finished the original prescription. I gave a 2/3rds full bottle to the sheriff's department weeks ago. The medication was prescribed in 2009. So I did not get addicted.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:13 pm to VOR
quote:Right. Clearly he government failed to control a... well... controlled substance.
On the other hand, there were plenty of.
“Pill mills” operating locally
The whole point of having government sanction distribution and regulation was to “keep drugs out of the wrong hands” by heavily regulating who, and how, these substances were distributed and sold.
Sound familiar to anyone?
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:15 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:DOJ had Mallinkrodt on the ropes in 2010 and 11 for sending 500,000,000 dosage units of opioids to the state of Florida in one year. Finally came to a head and while facing $2.4B in fines (that would sting, I don't care how big you are) our astute DOJ decided not to pursue in courts but rather decided to settle for $35mm. I think the actual settlement was under Sessions but the case had been going on for several years. $2.4B will make you change your business practices. A week's worth of income; not so much.
THe only cure for government incompetence is....
Posted on 8/26/19 at 8:46 pm to Nguyener
quote:
Blame the doctors, blame the drug companies, blame everyone but the addict....that's bullshite.
quote:
Why can't I blame all of them?
You can and should.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 10:23 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
$572 Million Decision Against J&J in Opioid Trial
Good, these drugs wrought havoc on our nation to obscene levels, bout time we held them accountable though these damages are peanuts compared to their overall net worth
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:59 pm to Ragnar Danneskjold
quote:
The opioid epidemic is big enough everyone involved is culpable.
So is the car wreck epidemic; who can we sue so a couple of class action ambulance chasers can get rich?
I keep hearing about how conservative this forum is, but moral outrage isn’t limited to the left, unfortunately.
Posted on 8/27/19 at 12:06 am to NC_Tigah
I had a hysterectomy last Monday. I was sent home Tuesday with 30 600 mg Motrin and 20 10 mg OxyContin. I took them both as needed from Tuesday until Saturday and still have half of my OxyContin pills. I’m done with them. I took them as I was instructed and discontinued ASAP.
This isn’t a “big pharma” problem, this is a personal choice problem.
Maybe I’m not as sensitive as I should be but drug abuse isn’t a problem I want to deal with so I don’t abuse drugs
This isn’t a “big pharma” problem, this is a personal choice problem.
Maybe I’m not as sensitive as I should be but drug abuse isn’t a problem I want to deal with so I don’t abuse drugs
Posted on 8/27/19 at 1:07 am to NC_Tigah
J&J had net income of 15 billion last year. Half a billion isn't going to do shite to them. It was probably already reserved on their books anyway in 2018 so it's doubtful this even has much impact on their 2019 numbers, especially since the expense would most likely be recognized over a long period of time. Maybe the life of whatever related patents or the time period they were supplying the poppy ingredients.
So you're talking, what, $25m impact in 2019 for a company that brought in $81 billion last year in revenue. Talk about peanuts.
So you're talking, what, $25m impact in 2019 for a company that brought in $81 billion last year in revenue. Talk about peanuts.
Posted on 8/27/19 at 2:35 am to NC_Tigah
Why the hell would the money go to the state and not directly to the people affected
Lol this is nothing but a clever way for J&J to pay off politicians
Lol this is nothing but a clever way for J&J to pay off politicians
This post was edited on 8/27/19 at 2:36 am
Posted on 8/27/19 at 3:59 am to Barstools
quote:Half a billion in just in one state.
Half a billion isn't going to do shite to them.
Now multiply that $572M by 50 states => $28.6 BILLION
J&J manufactures just 1% of these pills.
So now multiply the $28.6 BILLION X 100 ... POOF! ... we have a $2.8T liability .... and THERE it is.
. . . But it is a mistake to simply attach such liability to a few Pharma companies or even the US pharmaceutical industry in general. Extrapolate it, like a sword of Damocles, to every branch of US medicine. That potential US tort-driven cost must be built in to everything in the US healthcare sector, not just pharma.
So in terms of "isn't going to do shite to them", someone does pay for all the massive liability costs built into our medical system. Who, pray tell, do you think that "someone" might be?
=======
Here are the facts:
As has been pointed out, J&J is a big company.
It has a $360 Billion Market Cap. Right or wrong, J&J can undergo a legal setback or two and still stay afloat.
J&J manufactures ~ 1% of these pills.
3 companies manufacture 88% of the meds in question: Mallinckrodt, Actavis Pharma; and Endo Pharmaceuticals. Those 3 companies have a combined market cap which is 20-fold less than J&J. Proportionate exposure will put them out of business just as surely as the concocted stupidity of "silicosis" was allowed to bankrupt Dow Corning.
=======
As to bizarre assertions that these "mystical pills" were hawked on poor uninformed physicians who had no idea as to side-effects, these meds predate WWII.
In scientific terms, they've been around forever!
They are opioids.
Opioids are addictive.
It's Medicine 101.
Even the dumbest graduate from the worst medschool in Uzbekistan knows opioids are addictive! The slickest marketing campaign in the history of the planet couldn't have changed that. The issue of overprescription had relatively nothing to do with marketing. It had everything to do with US Government-CMS mandates to medicate any patient complaint of pain, every patient complaint of pain.
Notice the phrase "complaint of pain".
The "pain" which nonmedical government bureaucrats insisted be treated need not have been actual pain, it only needed to be vocalized as such. To this day, a complaint of pain, certainly any complaint documented on a visual analog pain score, can jeopardize hospital reimbursement. Team-Obama made this a focal-point in its mandated EMRs. It still is!
Bottomline:
Despite well-known, well-documented medical literature on hazards of addiction, US politicians issued a directive to treat all complaints of pain. Politicians did this under the auspices of mandating good medical care. The US medical community abided the mandate. US Pharma fulfilled requests for meds which would prevent patients complaining of pain. Predictably bad things occurred. Predictably politicians blamed others. Predictably lawyers will now suck millions-and-millions-and-millions out of the system.
The cost is high.
Who pays?
Not the politicians.
Not the lawyers.
Not even the drug companies....those not bankrupted will pass costs on, use this as justification for disproportionately high US prices, and enjoy less competition in the process due to other companies being driven out of business.
So who pays?
You do. We all do.
and while "half a billion isn't going to do shite" to J&J, the resultant cost is killing the rest of us.
Posted on 8/27/19 at 7:28 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
THE GOVERNMENT MANDATED IT! CMS mandated pain scores which patients assigned for themselves. Poorer pain scores were equated by government bureaucrats with poor care, and diminished reimbursement regardless of legitimacy of the complaint. Hospitals could lose millions in annual reimbursements if doctors did not attend to "pain" rather than patients. When doctors were less than compliant in response, hospitals hired their own more compliant MDs. Voila! Problem solved. Enter government lawyers to sue for a problem 100% of their own creation.
You got a link to this? I want to read about this
Posted on 8/27/19 at 7:35 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Got to be outlawed.
Well, that's just dumb.
Posted on 8/27/19 at 8:25 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
THE GOVERNMENT MANDATED IT!
CMS mandated pain scores which patients assigned for themselves. Poorer pain scores were equated by government bureaucrats with poor care, and diminished reimbursement regardless of legitimacy of the complaint. Hospitals could lose millions in annual reimbursements if doctors did not attend to "pain" rather than patients. When doctors were less than compliant in response, hospitals hired their own more compliant MDs. Voila! Problem solved.
Enter government lawyers to sue for a problem 100% of their own creation.
fricking Press Ganey scores and HCAHPS. Absolutely infuriating and mind-boggling that anyone ever entertained the idea that this would be a helpful policy.
Posted on 8/27/19 at 9:14 am to Barstools
They had $600M accrued as of July 2019 so they'll have 0 P&L impact over this ruling. If course they need to appeal it so I think they have to carry it through the end of that process.
NC just destroyed this thread on his last post. I couldn't have said it better. The vindicative nature of our population on big business is going end very poorly.
NC just destroyed this thread on his last post. I couldn't have said it better. The vindicative nature of our population on big business is going end very poorly.
This post was edited on 8/27/19 at 9:19 am
Posted on 8/27/19 at 9:36 am to NC_Tigah
Holy Crap. J and J owned its own opium farm.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Posted on 8/27/19 at 11:46 am to NC_Tigah
quote:Its a bit like justifying theft from a rich person because “they can afford to buy a new TV”. Means-tested morality is the worst.
and while "half a billion isn't going to do shite" to J&J, the resultant cost is killing the rest of us.
This post was edited on 8/27/19 at 11:48 am
Posted on 8/27/19 at 11:49 am to Oilfieldbiology
quote:The Hospital VBP Program was established by the Affordable Care Act of 2010 (ACA), which added Section 1886(o) to the Social Security Act. The law requires the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to establish a value-based purchasing program for inpatient hospitals.
You got a link to this?
Hospital Value-Based Purchasing Program
quote:
HCAHPS survey to measure pain communication, not management
by Cheryl A. Thompson
01 December 2017
Starting with patients discharged on January 1, hospitals and vendors administering the Hospital Consumer Assessment of Healthcare Providers and Systems (HCAHPS) survey will ask 3 questions concerning communication about pain during the hospital stay. The 3 questions replace the ones about pain management that have appeared in the survey for the past several years.
Items 12, 13, and 14 on the 2018 version of the survey ask recently discharged adults to answer the following questions:
During this hospital stay, did you have any pain? (The answer choices are yes and no.)
During this hospital stay, how often did hospital staff talk with you about how much pain you had? (The answer choices are never, sometimes, usually, and always.)
During this hospital stay, how often did hospital staff talk with you about how to treat your pain? (The answer choices are never, sometimes, usually, and always.)
These changes stem from a decision announced a year ago by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) to remove the survey’s pain management measures from the Hospital Value-Based Purchasing (VBP) Program.
The 6-year-old CMS program links an acute care hospital’s performance on a set of quality measures to a portion of the agency’s Medicare reimbursements under the inpatient prospective payment system. A low-scoring hospital can have up to 2% of reimbursements withheld, while a top scorer can receive the equivalent of a 2% bonus. One fourth of a hospital’s total performance score comes from HCAHPS survey data. The survey’s pain management measures had been part of the program since its beginning. CMS indicated that some stakeholders have expressed concern that with inclusion of those measures on the survey, a hospital’s staff could feel pressured to prescribe more opioids so that the hospital would receive higher HCAHPS scores for pain management.
Agency officials pointed out that the pain management questions do not specify any particular pain control method and that, to their knowledge, no scientific study has supported an association between opioid prescribing practices and HCAHPS pain management scores.
CMS nonetheless opted to remove the pain management measures from the VBP program, starting with fiscal year 2018. Patients’ answers in 2016 and 2017 about pain management do not factor into the total performance score.
LINK
quote:
Combating the Opioid Crisis
In response to recommendations from the President’s Commission on Combatting Drug Addiction and the Opioid Crisis, to comply with the requirements of the Substance Use-Disorder Prevention that Promotes Opioid Recovery and Treatment (SUPPORT) for Patients and Communities Act (P.L. 115-271), and to avoid any potential unintended consequences, under the Hospital Inpatient Quality Reporting (IQR) Program, CMS is finalizing the proposal to update the Hospital Consumer Assessment of Healthcare Providers and Systems (HCAHPS) patient experience of care survey measure by removing the three recently revised pain communication questions. The removal of these questions is effective with October 2019 discharges, for the FY 2021 payment determination and subsequent years, earlier than proposed. As a related modification, CMS will not publicly report the three revised Communication About Pain questions.
LINK
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