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re: One reason shotguns suck for some defense
Posted on 5/6/13 at 4:09 pm to CoastieGM
Posted on 5/6/13 at 4:09 pm to CoastieGM
I will choose a compact shotgun, or even compact rifle over a handgun in almost any case.
For the vast majority of us, who don't spend countless hours training, a long gun is far easier to score hits with than a handgun.
Also, I hate when people think that when useing a shotgun, you just point it in the direction of your target and it will sweep the entire room.
For the vast majority of us, who don't spend countless hours training, a long gun is far easier to score hits with than a handgun.
Also, I hate when people think that when useing a shotgun, you just point it in the direction of your target and it will sweep the entire room.
0
Posted on 5/6/13 at 4:24 pm to CoastieGM
I almost can't resist. Your troll is too powerful.
I get some alcohol in me there's be no stopping it even though I KNOW you're trolling!
GAAAHHHARRRRGGGHHHHHH
I get some alcohol in me there's be no stopping it even though I KNOW you're trolling!
GAAAHHHARRRRGGGHHHHHH
Posted on 5/6/13 at 4:41 pm to boom roasted
quote:Good point. but I think the novice would still be better off with a hi-cap pistol over a shotgun for encounters under 7 yards (which is probably +90% of home defense situations).
I think this is the issue here. Damn few of us are pros.
It takes much more training and practice to get someone sufficiently competent with close-in shotgun (under 7 yards) than to get that same level of competency with a pistol under 7 yards.
The first several times a trainee goes into a hotroom with a shotgun, it's the same thing every time...they miss. Without fail, they fire too soon...every time (even with still targets).
Dang, I just wish I could have 5 minutes in person and I think you'd totally understand. (pointing axis in the wrist vs. the entire arms / upper body)
Agreed...leave the carbine to the pros (though I think the carbine would be more effective than a shotgun).
Posted on 5/6/13 at 4:43 pm to CoastieGM
quote:
In that same duration, any semi-auto pistol or carbine can send 3 to 5 rounds
It's about stopping power for me. I'm confident that two shots from a 12 ga has more stopping power than 5 from a 9.
..remember, I'm going to be all hopped up on drugs, you've got to get a shot on my CNS to stop me. Can your average thug POS shoot worth a damn? Because I'm getting a hit on his CNS with 00 - hell, I'm taking out T8-T10 on him.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 4:52 pm to dawg23
quote:
One reason shotguns suck for some defense
Coastie this is a pretty bad title. It should be "why both a shotgun and carbine are better for home defense compared to a pistol, but I still prefer the carbine."
And how was the shotgun not effective? The guy shot directly into drywall. Obviously we're all happy that the good guy won, but the bad guy was shooting blindly into a wall. I'm glad to see the shot pattern is about 2-3" across. That means my chances of hitting are greater than just 5.56mm or 7.62mm across.
And regardless of whether or not my follow-up shots will be hits, I would like to hope I at least connect a little bit on my first shot.
Then again you are the only one who has had a real home defense scenario unfold and I respect your opinion.
For the sake of argument for me:
Shotgun = Carbine >>>> Handgun
quote:
I don't know of a top-tier defensive firearm instructor that would ever recommend birdshot.
Amen.
I can't believe this topic is coming up again.
Birdshot is made for birds. It will only create shallow holes without actually doing REAL damage. I don't want to rely on the drug addict to FEEL the pain, I want to make his body cease to function.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 4:53 pm to faxis
quote:
I almost can't resist. Your troll is too powerful.
I get some alcohol in me there's be no stopping it even though I KNOW you're trolling!
GAAAHHHARRRRGGGHHHHHH
I feel your pain, man.
Seriously, I'm not trolling! We're just not aligning brainwaves here. I get equally frustrated that folks don't understand what I'm saying.
Let me try this another way. A person should only use a shotgun for home defense if he is able to point-shoot and hit a silhouetted the first time (every time) at close range with a rifle.
If a person can do that with a rifle, then the shotgun will be superior.
However, the shotgunner's home invasion plan may want to consist of holing-up and waiting for the BG to arrive...the shotgunner probably should NOT plan on moving between rooms in his home.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 5:06 pm to CoastieGM
quote:
Shotgun = Carbine >>>> Handgun
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know of a top-tier defensive firearm instructor that would ever recommend birdshot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen.
I can't believe this topic is coming up again.
Double amen.
quote:
I get equally frustrated that folks don't understand what I'm saying.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree w/ any of it.
quote:Agreed. It's the rare circumstance where it's advisable for the homeowner to clear the house. Better (and safer) to barricade the door, take cover, call 911, keep 911 on the phone and put the sights of the shotgun on the door. Under most circumstances, clearing the house is NOT for the typical homeowner.
However, the shotgunner's home invasion plan may want to consist of holing-up and waiting for the BG to arrive...the shotgunner probably should NOT plan on moving between rooms in his home.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 5:11 pm to bapple
quote:Agreed.
Coastie this is a pretty bad title
arrrgh...so much to share that's not cool to post.
BTW, I'm not drawing from home defense experience here, but 20+ yrs professional experience. Close-in stuff was my specialty.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 5:16 pm to TigerOnThe Hill
quote:
Agreed. It's the rare circumstance where it's advisable for the homeowner to clear the house. Better (and safer) to barricade the door, take cover, call 911, keep 911 on the phone and put the sights of the shotgun on the door. Under most circumstances, clearing the house is NOT for the typical homeowner.
This is correct, and not really debatable.
Unless you absolutely have to leave a spot where you can wait for the intruder to enter your fatal funnel (e.g. you have to go the room(s) of young children to retrieve//protect them), clearing your house should not be attempted -- unless you are trained, and have a trained partner to assist.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 5:18 pm to CoastieGM
BAH! Can't take it.
No. You're wrong.
Pistols are inherently MUCH LESS ACCURATE than any long gun. Precisely because of the wrist as well as the length between the sights not to mention the elbows. That's not even debatable.
Shotguns are done with point shooting and considering I can take the head clean off a duck whipping through trees at 40 MPH I'm more than confident I can hit a dude in the chest inside a room.
As for speed with a pump action shotgun, I'm almost as fast with it as you are with a semi auto. I've actually raced to prove that before. And if you think you can shoot five times fast with a pistol NEARLY as accurately as anyone shooting a few times with a shotgun, you're delusional.
Next time I am assaulting a boat, I'll ask them. Well no not really since my brother is a seal.
I understand you're coming at this from a coast guard perspective, but that's not home defense. At all. It's damn near tunnel rat shite.
You are completely, utterly, WRONG in just about everything you've stated so far when it comes to home defense.
Shotgun is king of the house. Which would you prefer, one or two hits with a pistol, or 27 hits with a .24 cal pistol at the same time every time the trigger is pulled?
Oh you say, your bullets are bigger? Well lets add em up and put your bullet on the scale vs weight of all the lead in that shotgun shell.
But, but, but the marines use AR's! Yeah because that's what they have and they have to ASSAULT, not just defend. They're two different things. Their weapon has to be able to play tag out past 200 yrds as well as go into a house. And they may need to be shooting THROUGH STUFF.
But wait! Swat teams use submachine guns! Yes they do because they are small, and PRECISE which is nice when you are practically buttfricking the guy in front of you in a stack as you do your ASSAULT and you don't want a cone of shot accidentally hitting someone you don't want hit.
Comparing military tactics, especially military tactics as specific as assaulting ships, to defending a home is apples and oranges. In your home, you don't want to shoot through walls unless you are the only person there. Thus, lighter projectiles that don't penetrate as deeply. You want to put the threat down IMMEDIATELY and you might be doing it in the dark where since it's your own home, you have the advantage but you can't see your sights anyway so a point shoot weapon is another advantage. One that spreads from a half inch out to say six inches is just that much more likely to hit the target. Period. That's just math and geometry. And it's throwing so much more weight at them that the effect on hit is devastatingly lethal.
Hey, if you're fighting in a duffel bag or a phone booth, yes, a pistol would be better. But if you're in your own house waiting for a guy to come to you, there is NOTHING better than a shotgun in that situation.
Period.
The End.
/exhales
I feel better now.
No. You're wrong.
Pistols are inherently MUCH LESS ACCURATE than any long gun. Precisely because of the wrist as well as the length between the sights not to mention the elbows. That's not even debatable.
Shotguns are done with point shooting and considering I can take the head clean off a duck whipping through trees at 40 MPH I'm more than confident I can hit a dude in the chest inside a room.
As for speed with a pump action shotgun, I'm almost as fast with it as you are with a semi auto. I've actually raced to prove that before. And if you think you can shoot five times fast with a pistol NEARLY as accurately as anyone shooting a few times with a shotgun, you're delusional.
quote:
Marine Corps FAST/RTT teams and Coast Guard TACLET/LEDET teams would strongly disagree. (the ultimate in close quarters teams).
Next time I am assaulting a boat, I'll ask them. Well no not really since my brother is a seal.
I understand you're coming at this from a coast guard perspective, but that's not home defense. At all. It's damn near tunnel rat shite.
You are completely, utterly, WRONG in just about everything you've stated so far when it comes to home defense.
Shotgun is king of the house. Which would you prefer, one or two hits with a pistol, or 27 hits with a .24 cal pistol at the same time every time the trigger is pulled?
Oh you say, your bullets are bigger? Well lets add em up and put your bullet on the scale vs weight of all the lead in that shotgun shell.
But, but, but the marines use AR's! Yeah because that's what they have and they have to ASSAULT, not just defend. They're two different things. Their weapon has to be able to play tag out past 200 yrds as well as go into a house. And they may need to be shooting THROUGH STUFF.
But wait! Swat teams use submachine guns! Yes they do because they are small, and PRECISE which is nice when you are practically buttfricking the guy in front of you in a stack as you do your ASSAULT and you don't want a cone of shot accidentally hitting someone you don't want hit.
Comparing military tactics, especially military tactics as specific as assaulting ships, to defending a home is apples and oranges. In your home, you don't want to shoot through walls unless you are the only person there. Thus, lighter projectiles that don't penetrate as deeply. You want to put the threat down IMMEDIATELY and you might be doing it in the dark where since it's your own home, you have the advantage but you can't see your sights anyway so a point shoot weapon is another advantage. One that spreads from a half inch out to say six inches is just that much more likely to hit the target. Period. That's just math and geometry. And it's throwing so much more weight at them that the effect on hit is devastatingly lethal.
Hey, if you're fighting in a duffel bag or a phone booth, yes, a pistol would be better. But if you're in your own house waiting for a guy to come to you, there is NOTHING better than a shotgun in that situation.
Period.
The End.
/exhales
I feel better now.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 5:25 pm to TigerOnThe Hill
quote:Ah-HA!...the cause of our sticking point.
Better (and safer) to barricade the door, take cover, call 911, keep 911 on the phone and put the sights of the shotgun on the door.
Perhaps this is where different situations cause divergent thinking. I want to get to my kids' room ASAP, so I need to be mobile. Were it just me and the wife, then barricaded in the bedroom with a shotgun would indeed get the job done perfectly.
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 5:42 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 5:35 pm to faxis
quote:
/exhales
I feel better now.
Actually, shipboard and the home are very similar...except you can shoot through walls in the home
BTW, only half my time was Coast Guard, I was Navy the other part. Ask your brother if he every worked with SBU-22 (I think it's now called SBT-22 these days). We used to be tied up right there on Point Algiers, on the west bank of river. Depending on what years he was in, I might have hauled his arse around.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 5:44 pm to CoastieGM
Cool! Thanks for your service. Probably didn't cross paths much. He started out in team 3 and ended it in SDV-3 doing mini subs and sniper stuff.
Pretty cool job getting on a sub in VA then not seeing the surface again till you're at the target sneaking up the beach in the dark.
Pretty cool job getting on a sub in VA then not seeing the surface again till you're at the target sneaking up the beach in the dark.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 6:00 pm to faxis
quote:Those guys are nuts. I don't see how they handle the claustrophobia. I'd choose MEATS over SDV any day of the week.
He started out in team 3 and ended it in SDV-3 doing mini subs and sniper stuff.
Our AOR was mostly central and s. america.
And if he ever did any cold water training in Kodiak during the early 90's, I was one of his instructors. Students and instructors were berthed together in an old condemned WWII-era barracks we called the "Hotel California" on SUPCEN Kodiak, so we all got to know each other fairly well. I dying to know.
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 6:05 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 6:04 pm to CoastieGM
Don't think he did anything that far north. He was in SDV-3 pretty quickly. He was in the Caribbean doing James Bond shite at the embassys and in the Med doing god knows what. Was about that same period of time though.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 6:23 pm to faxis
I got that wrong. He was in SDV-2. The time in coronado with ST-3 was pretty short.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 6:24 pm to faxis
I'll take a shotgun in CQC any day. 
ETA-related to home defense.
ETA-related to home defense.
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 6:25 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 6:28 pm to SmackoverHawg
What's a good semi auto SD shotgun, under$ 800
Posted on 5/6/13 at 6:35 pm to Nodust
quote:
What's a good semi auto SD shotgun, under$ 800
Under $800 new? I'd say a Saiga 12
ETA-or a Mossberg
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 6:36 pm
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