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re: Would the Allies have won WWII without America getting involved?
Posted on 7/26/14 at 4:58 am to Nativebullet
Posted on 7/26/14 at 4:58 am to Nativebullet
Amc doesn't play documentaries like that. Are you talking about the longest day? Great movie no doubt. No way the allies would win without the u.s. Britian wasn't stupid. Look at their casualty rate compared from World War I to II
0
Posted on 7/26/14 at 5:42 am to shinerfan
quote:
And a protracted war could very well have allowed one or both sides to split the atom. and depopulate Europe.
This is the wild card. Would either side have come up with nukes without the US doing so if the war dragged on long enough? I'm not well read enough on the efforts of other countries in that regard. Even if they were on the wrong track, they could have switched gears and eventually come up with atomic weapons given enough time I guess.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 6:12 am to Methuselah
the germans were already close
Posted on 7/26/14 at 6:47 am to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
Remember, the U-boat campaign came within a razor's edge of finishing off Britain. Without US involvement in the Battle of the Atlantic, Germany may well have forced Britain to sue for peace. That would free up massive resources both from the west and the North African/Mediterranean fronts that Hitler could use against Russia.
Plus, the US was shipping tons of material to the USSR.
Absolutely no US involvement, including logistical? I think Germany wins.
Agree 100% with this.
If you limit US involvement to Lend-lease only, Russia, Britain and there allies MAY have prevailed. Remember that Japan was steamrolling the pacific and potentially could have taken all of Pacifica including Australia with no US counter.
Russia & Britain where on it's knees for a time and if not US materials, Britain and Russia would possibly had starved. Britain certainly would have run out of fuel in 1940-41.
100% no US involvement could have meant Germany grabs the Suez there by opening up the ME oil shipments and with Britain cut off, they run out of Fuel and Italy/Germany have unfettered access around the Med and establish a link with Japan through the Canal.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 7:50 am to OleWar
quote:
Where was the Soviet Army on June 6th 1944?
At the Polish border.
Without lend lease from the USA, the Soviets would have lost in 1942.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 8:20 am to Nativebullet
Nope
Posted on 7/26/14 at 8:29 am to asurob1
You r forgetting the German A bomb project. The war would've dragged on another couple of years. Not to mention the longer it lasted, the more 262s are built and perfected
Posted on 7/26/14 at 8:59 am to prplhze2000
I understood the question to imply the US would no t have gotten involved militarily, but would have sent supplies, weapons to the Allies.
If the US was completely out and a true neutral (which assumes no 12/7/41), then, no. The War would have ended in a stalemate in Europe (pretty much with the borders as set out in the book Fatherland).
If the US was completely out and a true neutral (which assumes no 12/7/41), then, no. The War would have ended in a stalemate in Europe (pretty much with the borders as set out in the book Fatherland).
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:02 am to prplhze2000
Another thing to consider is the division of German forces. Troop placements in France and Italy to forestall American-British invasion/advancements as well as the considerable Luftwaffe presence throughout Europe could, for the most part, have been redirected to the easter front. Britain alone in the west would have lacked the capabilities to engage in any sort of significant offensive (with or without lend-lease). The article linked indicates that the Luftwaffe was primarily tied up in the west. The addition of the German air force alone to the eastern front would have been significant.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:04 am to shinerfan
quote:
The Russian rope-a-dope would have eventually worn Germany down but the sheer bodycount would have likely left the USSR too weakened to dominate Central and Eastern Europe for 45 years. And a protracted war could very well have allowed one or both sides to split the atom. and depopulate Europe.
This. The amount of material we gave the USSR let them stay in the fight and bleed out the Nazis. Without our support, it would have been a much longer war.
Hard to say which is better, let them fight it out and eventually use nukes on each other, or do what we did. Sure, Germany was evil, but the Soviet Union was no better.
LC
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:05 am to asurob1
quote:
The Germans failed to knock out the Soviets quickly and it was all over after that...it just took a few years to go down.
...and the Bohemian Corporal leading the way into oblivion.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:08 am to Boudin
quote:
The Germans had already lost that front when they diverted the attack from Moscow to Stalingrad. By that time the Russians were beating the Germans strategically.
Good post.
Splitting Army Group Center was the beginning of the end. The Germans take Moscow, it's all over.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:16 am to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
Plus, the US was shipping tons of material to the USSR.
Exactly. We were feeding the Russian Army with tons of food as well. Had we not been supplying the Ruskies, they probably would have sued for peace. The Germans were taking huge losses but the Russians were too. Without US supplying Russia, it would have been a long drawn out war.
Kinda unrelated but Hitler was constantly over-ruling and disregarding the advice of his generals.
Gen Rommel & the other German generals believed the Allied invasion was going to take place at Normandy while Hitler believe the invasion would take place further north at Calais. Had Hitler listened to his generals, the Germans could have pushed the Allied invasion back into the sea & WWII could have dragged on for another 2-3 years.
That would have given the Nazi's enough time to develop the jet airplane and would have given them air superiority over Europe.
Plus, the Germans were so close to having a nuclear bomb, maybe weeks away. Had the Nazi's developed the bomb, I believe they would have used it.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:31 am to TheDude321
The dude's assessment is about right for me.
By no means did the US "win" the war for the Allies, but made it where they could win on their fronts much more quickly. We made victory total, but did not create the victory ourselves.
I will say there would probably have been more stalemates and the world would look a lot different today had the US not been there.
By no means did the US "win" the war for the Allies, but made it where they could win on their fronts much more quickly. We made victory total, but did not create the victory ourselves.
I will say there would probably have been more stalemates and the world would look a lot different today had the US not been there.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:32 am to 3nOut
Did none of y'all play C&C: Red Alert!?
Russia takes over damn near all of Europe
Russia takes over damn near all of Europe
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:42 am to Nativebullet
Nobody could have handled Japan in the Pacific.
However, Russia pretty much handled the Germans from Stalingrad on - that was years before we opened up Italy and France.
Perhaps they would have run out of steam and settled on splitting Poland (more favorably Stalin's way) by 1946 or 1947.
Of course, we did logistically support the Russians - so if you remove America completely from the equation either lend/lease, or the other things we did pre-Pearl Harbor, and the more robust logistical things we did from December 1941 until we got our feet underneath us in early 1943 - maybe it goes the Germans way - it is difficult to say because of the massive scope and complexity of the war.
To put it in perspective, when you lay the war's pure volume next to all other wars fought before and since, combined, it dwarfs them. It is, by far, the most significant 6 years of conflict in all of human history. We are still feeling its effects some 70 years later.
However, Russia pretty much handled the Germans from Stalingrad on - that was years before we opened up Italy and France.
Perhaps they would have run out of steam and settled on splitting Poland (more favorably Stalin's way) by 1946 or 1947.
Of course, we did logistically support the Russians - so if you remove America completely from the equation either lend/lease, or the other things we did pre-Pearl Harbor, and the more robust logistical things we did from December 1941 until we got our feet underneath us in early 1943 - maybe it goes the Germans way - it is difficult to say because of the massive scope and complexity of the war.
To put it in perspective, when you lay the war's pure volume next to all other wars fought before and since, combined, it dwarfs them. It is, by far, the most significant 6 years of conflict in all of human history. We are still feeling its effects some 70 years later.
This post was edited on 7/26/14 at 9:43 am
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:01 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
However, Russia pretty much handled the Germans from Stalingrad on - that was years before we opened up Italy and France.
Russia handled Germany by beating them in their own territory and for no other reason. Russia's lack of logistical sophistication and military leadership plus ethnic diversity would have made it near impossible to be successful marching into German territory. It would have ended in a stalemate.
Russia is a superpower due to their defensive position only. When Russia is on the offensive, they are historically horrible at utilizing their inherent advantage of manpower and they can't bring their defensive advantages of climate and terrain with them when they leave Russia
quote:
Perhaps they would have run out of steam and settled on splitting Poland (more favorably Stalin's way) by 1946 or 1947.
The only reason it would be favoriable for the Russians would be because Germans would cut a piece to focus on western europe
quote:
It is, by far, the most significant 6 years of conflict in all of human history. We are still feeling its effects some 70 years later.
Not even close. Mongol conquests easily outdoes this considering the death tolls and casaulty counts are estimated to be in the same ballpark despite the significantly lower world population. WWI also has a similar argument as well
This post was edited on 7/26/14 at 11:04 am
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:07 am to GenesChin
Germany in WWI and WWII is hands down the most dominant military power in the world. Considering AustroHungary then Italy sucked in WWI then WWII, they took on 3 of the world's superpowers of the era and nearly won both wars. They may never have been able to successfully invade Russia no matter the circumstances but if they don't do Barbarosa and US doesn't invade, they win regardless of if Russia and England try and invade
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:21 am to TheDude321
quote:
ven after the U.S. joined in, the Soviets still got to Berlin first. The main thing American involvement did was keep the Soviets from taking over Western Europe in the process.
I always thought a big part of the reason we went in was to limit potential Soviet influence.
ETAL Patton wanted to go after them from what I was taught.
This post was edited on 7/26/14 at 11:23 am
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:51 am to GenesChin
quote:
Russia's lack of logistical sophistication and military leadership plus ethnic diversity would have made it near impossible to be successful marching into German territory. It would have ended in a stalemate.
I disagree. Kursk and Smolensky were well before the "Second Front" were even opened. Narva started right after Anzio. By the time the U.S. and British were drawing resources to France, Uncle Joe was within striking distance of Czechoslovakia and East Prussia - before Market-Garden, the Red Army was operating on German soil.
All Overlord did was shorten the war by 18 to 24 months. The allies won the European portion of the war at Stalingrad.
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