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re: What would’ve happened if Britain had surrendered in WWII?

Posted on 12/18/18 at 10:48 pm to
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
124570 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 10:48 pm to
quote:

We still would have won. We had nuclear bombs and the Germans didn’t.


Germans would have got the bomb and used it on the Soviets i’m Certain
Posted by CelticDog
Member since Apr 2015
42867 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 10:55 pm to
quote:

However, Hitler viewed Bolshevism as the enemy of National Socialism and always wanted the ideology destroyed, the two would have never “joined sides”.

Never? 

Wrong. Your statement is factually incorrect. 

I would agree with it being “highly unlikely” that the USSR & Nazi Germany were to have ever joined sides but no one today can categorically exclude that it would have ever happened


well done.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:01 pm to
Lots of reasons. Muslim leaders were generally closer to Nazis than they were to the British or the French, due to colonial resentment, and didn't have the same sort of historical associations with power that developed with Jewish people or the Roma. The story also goes that Reza Shah changed the name of Persia to Iran (it's internal name for millenia) because the Persian Ambassador to Germany was inspired (supposedly) by fascism.

The scale of a "Muslim" question would also rule it out such an undertaking, as the logistics, organization, and efficiency required would be massive. At this point, it's just the fever dream of Wehraboos who don't understand human scale.

Hitler (and broadly, the German right from the fin de siecle onward) was obsessed with lebensraum and competing with France and Britain. If Nazi Germany had won, would they have taken (and exploited to the same degree) France and Britain's colonial possessions? Almost certainly. But it's unlikely that they would pursue a "Muslim" question, when historical animosity had been directed westward since industrialization.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:06 pm to
quote:

If I recall, didn’t the Nazis recruit some Muslim fighters,



Some Muslim groups, like those in Palestine, had very close relations. Generally the Arab world had an anti-colonialist mindset, and Germany, as an imperial upstart, was regarded as a friend by virtue of their shared enemies. Italy set up a puppet state in Albania, and you saw resistance there. Muslims in the Balkans condemned the persecution of Serbs, and joined Tito's partisans. At the same time, Germany created a SS division in Bosnia after internal security there decreased. It was in that division that the only Muslim fighter for the Germans earned an Iron Cross.

Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
124570 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:08 pm to
This is a great point. Taking the British and French colonial posessions, the Germans could have used them for Lebensraum, and you could have seen dozens of Rhodesia-Esque countries eventually. Decades out it might not have been so terrible. For all their faults, Germans are notorious keen and efficient
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
124570 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:11 pm to
Also true...not like Muslims are some monolithic entity.

A deeper question...

Without nearly as many genocidal elements, do you think a German dominated Europe could have been a boon to Europe? Or are the genocidal elements does the Nazi party rise?

Perhaps instead of extermination, expulsion?

Alternative history discussions are fascinating
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
98335 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:12 pm to
Majority-Muslim Albania saved nearly all its Jews LINK
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:14 pm to
quote:

Taking the British and French colonial posessions, the Germans could have used them for Lebensraum


The historical notion of lebensraum ended in the Caucasus. More than likely they would have competed with the traditional powers in the region, Iran and Turkey, as all invaders have done for the last millennia. In response to the pan-Germanic ideas of the Nazis, pan-Iranic and pan-Turkic ideologies formed, ideologies which made historical claims of land as large as the German claim of land in Eastern Europe. Had those pan-ethnic ideas won out (rather than the cosmopolitan polities in the West), those claims would have been taken more seriously, as both the Turks and Persians had grievances against imperial powers, who had, in different ways, ended the imperial designs of each.

quote:

For all their faults, Germans are notorious keen and efficient


Read The Wages of Destruction. Any notion that Nazis were efficient is dispelled. The Nazis created an economic engine that wasn't going to sustain itself without war, and they had no ability to access resources vital for their war economy.
This post was edited on 12/18/18 at 11:17 pm
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
124570 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:19 pm to
quote:

Read The Wages of Destruction. Any notion that Nazis were efficient is dispelled. The Nazis created an economic engine that wasn't going to sustain itself without war, and they had no ability to access resources vital for their war economy.



I said Germans, not Nazis. (Meaning the German people as a whole seem to have a knack for things like engineering and such) And you’d have seen the vital resources in the colonies, no?

The Roman Empire sustained itself on conquest as well
This post was edited on 12/18/18 at 11:20 pm
Posted by Loaner1231
Member since Jan 2016
3903 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:20 pm to
crazy4lsu I appreciate your knowledge on the subject.

quote:

Alternative history discussions are fascinating


Very much so.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:24 pm to
quote:

do you think a German dominated Europe could have been a boon to Europe?


Germans dominated Europe for a long time. What the Nazis represented was a pan-Germanic ideal, which was dangerous for the social order that developed in Central Europe. Germans played major roles in the Austrian and Russian empires, and were nearly ubiquitous throughout Eastern Europe.

It also depends on what you mean by boon. German universities were the best in the world in the 20's, but there were numerous problems. Firstly the German right had no faith in the Weimar Republic, or anyone other than a traditional conservative, to run Germany. The origins of German rearmament under the Nazis was actually during the Weimar, when Kurt von Schleicher made a series of agreements, using shell companies, to produce weapons in the USSR. There were also numerous other scandals, from assassination of journalists to pitched battles between communists and other groups (including the SA). The key turning point was the belief that the Social Democrats couldn't rule Germany, after they won elections in 1928, but not enough to form a government. The deep cynicism of the German right drove them into Hitler's arms.

The problem Germany faced were that Britain and France didn't want it to become a colonial power, nor a continental power. That tension would have existed regardless of who was in charge. The geopolitics would exist regardless, and those geopolitics are ultimately what defines both internal and external policies.

This post was edited on 12/18/18 at 11:29 pm
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:27 pm to
quote:

said Germans, not Nazis.


Fair enough, but the Nazi economic policy was schizophrenic to say the least.

quote:

The Roman Empire sustained itself on conquest as well



What it took to sustain an ancient army and a modern one is a meaningful distinction.
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
124570 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:29 pm to
quote:

What it took to sustain an ancient army and a modern one is a meaningful distinction.


I’ll concede this point. I guess the wonder here is, with a different path, do we see a better Europe current day.?
Posted by Tiger2424
Member since Nov 2015
1203 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:31 pm to
I got one for you. What if British Private, Henry Tandey, who during a battle had Adolf Hitler “dead to rights” would of pulled the trigger instead of lowering his weapon and letting Hitler walk off the battlefield unharmed.
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
124570 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:35 pm to
quote:

I got one for you. What if British Private, Henry Tandey, who during a battle had Adolf Hitler “dead to rights” would of pulled the trigger instead of lowering his weapon and letting Hitler walk off the battlefield unharmed.


In WW1?

Depends on how much you subscribe to the “Great Man Theory”
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
98335 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:41 pm to
Bolshevik Germany? Some kind of right wing authoritarian but less externally aggressive regime? I dont think democracy would have thrived.
Posted by 777Tiger
Member since Mar 2011
73856 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:42 pm to
I call Bolshevik!,,
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:43 pm to
quote:

do we see a better Europe current day.?



Despite all the problems in Europe, the continent is much better off than it was during the imperial era. No major conflicts and it's problems are mainly economic. Even with the mass migration issues, that is not necessarily a European problem. The refugee system that was developed in the post-war era has been broken since 1991 at least, and no one has attempted to fix it. Without a war in Syria, you wouldn't see near amount the migration, and with the SCW dying down, hopefully some of the migration pressure will be eased.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
16927 posts
Posted on 12/19/18 at 12:00 am to
quote:

If that cuck Neville Chamberlain had signed an armistice with Hitler, would the world be a different place today?


Two things:

1) You do realize that an armistice is not a surrender, correct? Wars don't have to end in complete victory or abject capitulation, though that trend is part of why 20th century wars have been so uniquely savage.

2) Neville Chamberlain tied Britain to war with Germany over an extremely contentious and complex German/Polish land dispute and ethnic rivalry that went back nearly 1000 years. He did this in March of 1939 and it was an extremely aggressive and risky foreign policy move. He also honored it in September of that same year and thus voluntarily entered Britain into a major European war over a German/Polish matter that affected the British Empire very little outside of the relative power balance in Europe. His actions were far from cuckish but people tend to repeat the trope they hear on the History Channel rather than thinking for themselves.


This post was edited on 12/19/18 at 12:14 am
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
16927 posts
Posted on 12/19/18 at 12:07 am to
quote:

To answer the OP's question, we would eventually have fought Germany, and both sides would have nuclear weapons.


That's absolute speculation with little support. If we didn't fight the USSR at a time where we were clearly world enemies with diametrically opposite worldviews and governmental systems then there is no reason to assume we would have eventually fought a National Socialist Germany who had secured itself economic and geopolitical security in the European power structure. Hitler openly expressed desire, both prewar and during the war, to reach a cooperative relationship with the British Empire. There was no "inevitable" war between Hitler's Germany and the West.
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