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Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:46 am to DOPEman
[quote]An aircraft carrier Captain CC's too many people on an email
Is that what happened here? How many people we talking about and who were they? The problem with this whole thread is that no one here appears to know what really happened. Maybe all judgment and finger pointing should be withheld.
Is that what happened here? How many people we talking about and who were they? The problem with this whole thread is that no one here appears to know what really happened. Maybe all judgment and finger pointing should be withheld.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:47 am to BuckyCheese
Disagree with you sentiment. Upvoted for Gene Hackman 
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:49 am to FlyingTiger06
Very interesting. What are your thought on rail guns or the Rod from God?
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:52 am to SloaneRanger
quote:
How many people we talking about and who were they? The problem with this whole thread is that no one here appears to know what really happened. Maybe all judgment and finger pointing should be withheld.
From a CNN article:
quote:
Modly [acting SECNAV] told reporters that Crozier was removed for showing "extremely poor judgment" and creating a "firestorm" by too widely disseminating the memo detailing his concerns, copying some 20 to 30 people.
He said Crozier was not removed because of any evidence suggesting he leaked the memo to the press, but rather for allowing "the complexity of his challenge with the Covid breakout on the ship to overwhelm his ability to act professionally when acting professionally was what was needed the most at the time."
LINK
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:54 am to SloaneRanger
quote:
Is that what happened here? How many people we talking about and who were they?
Yep. I keep seeing conflicting numbers but most reports say 20-30, no clue who was on the distro.
quote:
Maybe all judgment and finger pointing should be withheld.
They should, but they won't.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:55 am to DOPEman
quote:
Speaking at a news conference Thursday evening, Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly said Crozier was removed from his post because he sent the letter over "non-secure unclassified email" to a "broad array of people" rather than up the chain of command
quote:
Modly insisted the that decision was his alone.
So the civilian SecNav removes an O-6 from command, completely bypassing the admirals. How is that part of the chain of command?
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:55 am to RollTide1987
quote:
However, he did spread that letter liberally around to between 30-40 people
Doesn’t sound like the smartest thing to do. I’m struggling to feel sorry for this guy
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:57 am to red sox fan 13
quote:
Military has grown soft
Then it would match the rest of America. Face it, we've all become a bunch of pussies even if we don't want to admit it. Natural side effect of living in comfort for so long.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:57 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:Modly is the SecNav.
How is that part of the chain of command?
He is part of the chain of command, is he not?
Maybe he consulted with the Admiralty.
One of the core principles of our country is continued civilian oversight of the military.
This post was edited on 4/3/20 at 10:59 am
Posted on 4/3/20 at 10:59 am to DavidTheGnome
(no message)
This post was edited on 4/12/23 at 2:32 am
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:00 am to RollTide1987
quote:
That was fake news that I posted last night which turned out to be inaccurate. SECNAV doesn't believe he DIRECTLY leaked the letter to the press. However, he did spread that letter liberally around to between 30-40 people, which allowed the letter to eventually end up in the hands of the San Francisco Chronicle. That's why he was fired.
So he was grossly negligent. He may as well have leaked it himself.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:00 am to Scruffy
Yes. Chain of command goes up not down. SecNav is above the Admirals.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:01 am to DOPEman
quote:
An aircraft carrier Captain CC's too many people on an email pleading with his superiors to take action for the welfare of the Sailors under his command and oh well the Navy's hands were tied.
It’s not as simple as that. He sent an email about the operational status of his command to 30-40 people outside his chain of command via unsecured email.
Regardless of any humanitarian concerns or motivations he had for those under his command the fact he did this, namely openly broadcast the operational status of his command, demands he lose that command.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:01 am to Scruffy
quote:
One of the core principles of our country is continued civilian oversight of the military.
My understanding (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am) is that civilian leadership really gets involved with promotion to O-7 (Rear Admiral) and anything O-6 and below is basically left to the uniforms.
The Captain should not have so widely distributed the letter. But does that make him unfit for command? I think the civilian oversight resulted in the civilians thinking they need to make a change for PR purposes. I don't think the uniforms give a crap about PR
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:03 am to DOPEman
quote:Exactly.
Yes. Chain of command goes up not down. SecNav is above the Admirals.
Hopefully he consulted with the admiralty before making this decision.
If so and they back his stance, Scruffy applauds Modly for taking all the publicity by stating it was his decision.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:03 am to fr33manator
quote:
rail guns or the Rod from God?
Rail guns are promising, but so far the range of them is pretty limited. We are finally making headway (Navy, Army, and AF) on long-range hypersonic weapon capabilities and I believe they are a game changer.
Suspect of the ideas of the Rod from God from a practical standpoint. Great in theory, but there are a whole lot of treaties prohibiting the weaponization of space and for good reason. Because no single country has jurisdiction over "space" and there's no vertical definition (that I'm aware of anyway) to a country's sovereign territory, in theory you could park an armed satellite in geo-synchronous orbit directly over a country and have it under threat 24/7. No way any country would allow that, just like we don't allow overflight over another countries military aircraft. Also, think of the ability to control escalation of a fight that has attacks originating from or targeting assets in space. That kind of fight would go nuclear really fast.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:09 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:That all is based on an assumption that Modly did this without consulting anyone else, which Scruffy doubts is the case.
My understanding (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am) is that civilian leadership really gets involved with promotion to O-7 (Rear Admiral) and anything O-6 and below is basically left to the uniforms.
quote:This seems like a pretty cut and dry situation.
The Captain should not have so widely distributed the letter. But does that make him unfit for command?
Where do you draw the line at “it is acceptable to leak information” and “it isn’t acceptable”?
Crozier likely knew the repercussions.
He likely acted with the best of intentions and Scruffy applauds that, but the military likely does not want the concept of “running to the press” to become something that is acceptable.
From a purely military structure point of view, this is what was going to, and needed to, happen.
No different than that thread a little while back where doctors were fired for speaking to the press without authorization.
We agree to certain rules, guidelines, or stipulations when we accept our positions.
This situation is no different.
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:09 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:
My understanding (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am) is that civilian leadership really gets involved with promotion to O-7 (Rear Admiral) and anything O-6 and below is basically left to the uniforms.
Congressional approval is required for all flag officers, but in reality, the civilians really only to start to get involved at the O-9 level (Lieutenant General/Vice Admiral) and above unless there are some unusual circumstances; it's pretty much pro forma based on the military's recommendations up to that point. The Secretaries and Congress really aren't getting involved in who commands Divisions or CSGs or whatever; they don't know the officer corp down to that level well enough to have a true say.
quote:
But does that make him unfit for command?
Well, he definitely has lost the confidence of his CSG, 3rd Fleet, and PACFLT commanders. Just that alone is going to be a death blow. Was it the right call on his part? I don't know, and time will tell.
This post was edited on 4/3/20 at 11:11 am
Posted on 4/3/20 at 11:13 am to AbuTheMonkey
Curious what the CSG commander thinks about all this. Since he and his staff are nearly always located on the carrier, presumably he has firsthand knowledge of the situation.
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