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re: UPDATE 4/26 -Just In Case the OT Didn't Know - The UK is murdering a little baby right now
Posted on 4/27/18 at 11:57 am to Num1TigerSpam
Posted on 4/27/18 at 11:57 am to Num1TigerSpam
quote:
Is this that same one that's been brain dead????? The parents are nutcases and irrational
Irrelevant. The state should not have the power to prohibit the child from being taken to Italy for other treatment, even if it is utterly futile and he's 100% brain dead.
This post was edited on 4/27/18 at 11:58 am
1
Posted on 4/27/18 at 12:18 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
It's their country, they've chosen to live this way. I obviously disagree with it, but I don't really ask for their input on our gun crime issues, either.
I feel you man but this type of thing makes democracy seem like mob rule to me (yes, that's dramatic; and no, I'm not an anarchist, it just highlights the failures of certain government systems as no option is perfect).
Just because 51% of a population thinks this kid should be held hostage doesn't make it right, obviously, and I sympathize greatly with the plight of those who fall victim to government overreach because of the majority.
maybe the answer is that if you really feel that way, don't live in an oppressive country, but it's hard to leave ones home and I doubt you even realize the government can be this oppressive and tyrannical until it hits you right in the face
This post was edited on 4/27/18 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 4/27/18 at 12:38 pm to Centinel
quote:This is my position summed up, near perfectly.
Irrelevant. The state should not have the power to prohibit the child from being taken to Italy for other treatment, even if it is utterly futile and he's 100% brain dead.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 2:25 pm to Mahootney
quote:Ohhhh. Snap. There may be hope for the kid, yet!
BREAKING: Polish detectives in Liverpool to 'SAVE' Alfie Evans with 'secret 3rd solution'
POLISH detectives in "military gear" have arrived in Liverpool with a shock "third solution" to save tragic tot Alfie Evans.
Detectives from a private security firm in Poland have been spotted in Liverpool near Alder Hey hospital where 23-month-old Alfie is receiving "end of life" treatement.
They are sat in a car called "Rutkowski Patrol" and say they have a shock "third solution" to save the tot who is fighting an unidentified neurological condition.
The detectives say the plan for Alfie, who has now been breathing unaided for more than 120 hours since having his life support switched off, is currently a "secret".
But they add that the head of the security firm, Krzysztof Rutkowski, is flying to the UK today ready to reveal the big plan at 11am tomorrow morning in a shock twist.
Krzysztof said in a Facebook post which was slightly broken down in translation: "We've proposed so-called... the third solved Alfie Evans drama.
"The solution is consistent with British law and optimistically adopted by the family. I'm leaving for Liverpool today to close them."
The news comes 24 hours after Alfie's parents appeared to make the shock decision to call off "Alfie's Army", urging supporters to return to their lives and for weeks of protests to come to an end.
In a statement, Alfie's dad Tom promised to “work with doctors” and “form a relationship” going forward so that Alfie's final days can be "dignified".
Rutkowski is a private detective firm run by ex-politician and investigator Krzysztof.
The 58-year-old, who previously repatriated a nine-year-old Polish girl from the custody of Norwegian authorities in 2011, first announced his intention to scramble his team of agents to Liverpool yesterday.
In his Facebook announcement, he said: “My agents are just preparing to head to the airport to fly out to Liverpool.
“This is a very complicated and very loud case, but I believe with all my heart, we can indirectly or directory influence the authorities and hospital chiefs.
"We need to do everything we can in this case.”
Posted on 4/27/18 at 2:28 pm to Mahootney
Interesting...
Posted on 4/27/18 at 2:41 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
What has happened today?
As Alfie’s parents stay locked in talks with Alder Hey in a bid to let the toddler home, today has seen developments outside the hospital.
• Steven Woolfe, Member of the European Parliament, has called for parents not to be ignored by the courts
• A candlelight vigil was held at the Vatican
• ‘Alfies Army’ asked for their 615k members to comment with where they were - replies came from around the world
• Charlie Gard’s parents released a statement calling for Charlie’s Law
• Nigel Farage told US TV the state should not own are children
• Ann Widdecombe said “doctors are not infallible”
• The Christian Legal Centre hit back at judge for “unfair” and “detrimental” criticism
Alfie's still fighting on!!!
As Alfie’s parents stay locked in talks with Alder Hey in a bid to let the toddler home, today has seen developments outside the hospital.
• Steven Woolfe, Member of the European Parliament, has called for parents not to be ignored by the courts
• A candlelight vigil was held at the Vatican
• ‘Alfies Army’ asked for their 615k members to comment with where they were - replies came from around the world
• Charlie Gard’s parents released a statement calling for Charlie’s Law
• Nigel Farage told US TV the state should not own are children
• Ann Widdecombe said “doctors are not infallible”
• The Christian Legal Centre hit back at judge for “unfair” and “detrimental” criticism
Alfie's still fighting on!!!
This post was edited on 4/27/18 at 2:48 pm
Posted on 4/27/18 at 2:51 pm to Mahootney
I have to think if this were happening in the United States, at least some of the officers stationed to prevent Alfie's exit from the hospital would lay down their arms and step aside.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 3:00 pm to Mahootney
Having to pry the baby out of the filthy Brits nasty claws 
Seriously, a new perspective of them.
Seriously, a new perspective of them.
This post was edited on 4/27/18 at 3:01 pm
Posted on 4/27/18 at 3:10 pm to Rhino5
this is only a few shades of authoritarian away from a V for Vendetta movie 
these stories give me pause and remind me how blessed I am to live in America. We aren't completely free, not by a long shot, but it's always good to see where you could be.
these stories give me pause and remind me how blessed I am to live in America. We aren't completely free, not by a long shot, but it's always good to see where you could be.
This post was edited on 4/27/18 at 3:12 pm
Posted on 4/27/18 at 3:12 pm to Mahootney
Update posted on the Poli board
Hospital committing more shameful acts
Hospital committing more shameful acts
quote:
A report from Italian newspaper La Nuova Bussola suggests Father Don Gabriele Brusco was removed from Alfie's bedside by Liverpool Archbishop Malcolm McMahon after hospital staff grew tired of the priest's presence. Father Brusco, while stationed at the hospital to tend to Alfie, was reportedly reminding medical staffers that God is aware of their choices during this trying time. "While at the hospital, the priest appealed to the consciences of the hospital staff, reminding them that God would judge them for their sins against Alfie’s life," reported Life Site News. "Apparently, the staff did not like this."
Posted on 4/27/18 at 3:13 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
can't have someone in your ear telling you that you are a pawn of an overreaching government and doing bad things for that government
it'd make them actually have to self-reflect a little bit.
it'd make them actually have to self-reflect a little bit.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 3:59 pm to Ross
quote:
I feel you man but this type of thing makes democracy seem like mob rule to me (yes, that's dramatic; and no, I'm not an anarchist, it just highlights the failures of certain government systems as no option is perfect).
I'm not saying people shouldn't be critical. I honestly have a hard time figuring out what's real and what isn't, and that's why I'm at least somewhat reserved on this topic.
The emotional US response kind of reminds me of Israel-firsters in America, who often have an entirely different view of a situation than those on the ground in the country where the event is taking place. People are using this as some political and religious crusade, and that makes me want to back off from it a little bit (mob mentality).
I feel for the parents, who don't have their country behind them and are probably struggling with what the right course of action is. But I also have some sympathy for at least some of the doctors and nurses who are made out to be demonic by people who have no knowledge of the situation and are merely looking for a place to channel their energies.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:12 pm to Pettifogger
quote:All of this is true.
I feel for the parents, who don't have their country behind them and are probably struggling with what the right course of action is. But I also have some sympathy for at least some of the doctors and nurses who are made out to be demonic by people who have no knowledge of the situation and are merely looking for a place to channel their energies.
It's not most of the medical staff's fault (except for the complicity, but that's just a moral judgement on my part).
And honestly, it might not be anyone's fault. It's most likely the rare circumstance where the law is flawed and cruel despite the "best of intentions".
I won't lie. I've been touched by this story. I could easily see myself in this situation as a new father to a young son.
But not one person has offered a decent excuse for why the UK won't let this (and other children) leave or seek other medical help.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:19 pm to Mahootney
To hear UK citizens defend it, the Alder Hey doctors and the judge are acting in the best interests of the child. And their conclusion on that front has more weight in the UK than the judgment of the parents of the child.
I think that's the most neutral way I could try and tell it to someone who wasn't following the story. And honestly, that's all I need to make my argument here, which is that I don't want to live in a country where the state has control in that situation UNLESS there is a very compelling reason as to why the parents' preferences would be detrimental. And while I've heard various speculation about why moving Alfie to Italy COULD be detrimental, they're all hedging or undefined.
But that said, hundreds of thousands of Americans irate at the UK over this and making grand claims about the satanic nature of the NHS make me uncomfortable, and I think some religious and conservative media outlets I typically appreciate are being a little reckless, or they're intentionally trying to foster outrage without much regard for the reality of the situation.
I think that's the most neutral way I could try and tell it to someone who wasn't following the story. And honestly, that's all I need to make my argument here, which is that I don't want to live in a country where the state has control in that situation UNLESS there is a very compelling reason as to why the parents' preferences would be detrimental. And while I've heard various speculation about why moving Alfie to Italy COULD be detrimental, they're all hedging or undefined.
But that said, hundreds of thousands of Americans irate at the UK over this and making grand claims about the satanic nature of the NHS make me uncomfortable, and I think some religious and conservative media outlets I typically appreciate are being a little reckless, or they're intentionally trying to foster outrage without much regard for the reality of the situation.
This post was edited on 4/27/18 at 4:20 pm
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:22 pm to Mahootney
The US should have our newest ally, N Korea to bomb the UK.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:26 pm to Salamander_Wilson
quote:This has not proven to be the case historically.
I have to think if this were happening in the United States, at least some of the officers stationed to prevent Alfie's exit from the hospital would lay down their arms and step aside.
We all believe we will do what's right in the face of authority, but in reality.... very, very few actually do it.
Milgram experiment
The Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. They had to administer electric shocks to a "learner." These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.
The experiments began in July 1961, to answer the popular contemporary question: "Could it be that those involved in the Holocaust were just following orders?"
Milgram polled fourteen Yale University seniors to predict the behavior of the hypothetical teachers. All of the poll respondents believed that only a very small fraction of would be prepared to inflict the maximum voltage (~4%), and "only a little over one-tenth of one percent of the subjects would administer the highest shock on the board."
In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40) of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock,[1] and all administered shocks of at least 300 volts.
He found that while the percentage of participants who are prepared to inflict fatal voltages ranged from 28% to 91%, there was no significant trend over time and the average percentage for US studies (61%) was close to the one for non-US studies (66%). The experiment was repeated many times around the globe, with fairly consistent results.
This speaks to my earlier point. The medical staff is just doing their jobs. However, the Priest is right. The should be ashamed.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:28 pm to Pettifogger
quote:Detrimental to his health would only matter if the potential outcome of the current course wasn’t death. Arguing that transfer is detrimental is a flawed argument from the start.
I think that's the most neutral way I could try and tell it to someone who wasn't following the story. And honestly, that's all I need to make my argument here, which is that I don't want to live in a country where the state has control in that situation UNLESS there is a very compelling reason as to why the parents' preferences would be detrimental. And while I've heard various speculation about why moving Alfie to Italy COULD be detrimental, they're all hedging or undefined.
Both sides are taking an emotional stand pertaining to the well-being of the child, as if one side is more correct than the other.
There is no right choice only two choices that both have bad outcomes.
Honestly, no one is correct here.
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:31 pm to Pettifogger
quote:The alternative is let him stay and DIE for sure.
And while I've heard various speculation about why moving Alfie to Italy COULD be detrimental, they're all hedging or undefined.
This "best interest" test is the most discouraging thing I see with regards to the NHS.
We'll let the government decide in exchange for socialized health care.
All is fine and dandy until it is you... or your kid. And you are having to defend yourself and family rights against the formidable might of the state.
EDIT: Oh... and the default is that the State has primary say.
This post was edited on 4/27/18 at 4:33 pm
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:32 pm to Scruffy
From your posts I think you believe it should be left to the parents, no? That's my default, but I say that without any understanding of the reasons why moving the child would/could be bad. Could he experience pain?
I obviously feel for the family, who are just being used as pieces on a board for a lot of people and entities right now (both sides).
I obviously feel for the family, who are just being used as pieces on a board for a lot of people and entities right now (both sides).
Posted on 4/27/18 at 4:35 pm to Mahootney
quote:
The alternative is let him stay and DIE for sure.
By all accounts he's going to die for sure. I don't really see the reason for some who are trying to make it appear as though this is certain death vs. viable chance of recovery. I buy the idea of "you never know" but it's not the stark choice some with agendas are trying to make it, IMO.
quote:
This "best interest" test is the most discouraging thing I see with regards to the NHS.
Well, we do it here too, to some extent. Obviously we have different "default" positions, it seems. The most discouraging thing to me is that it's like the parents have the burden to usurp the rights of the state, and not vice versa.
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