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OT lawyers - how do state courts respond when you use precedent from another state?

Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:47 pm
Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:47 pm
Been watching videos of sovereign citizens who upon getting pulled over, keep citing a case called People v. Battle, a California Court of Appeal case from 1975 and they claim it set case law that traffic infractions aren't crime. They insist it's valid even if they aren't even in California apparently.

Does it hold up? Intuitively, I think no, just curious though.
Posted by Mingo Was His NameO
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2016
37536 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:49 pm to
State courts aren't bound by the courts of another state
This post was edited on 1/8/19 at 2:54 pm
Posted by Tortious
ATX
Member since Nov 2010
5768 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:49 pm to
quote:

State courts are bound by the courts of another state


Wut?
Posted by theOG
Member since Feb 2010
10859 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:50 pm to
quote:

State courts are bound by the courts of another state


Swing and a miss.
Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:51 pm to
quote:

State courts are bound by the courts of another state


That makes no fricking sense. The only court I'm aware of that binds every state is SCOTUS.

The only other court I know that could be binding is if a case from state reached your federal appeals circuit and they set a precedent.
Posted by Crimson1L
Fairhope
Member since Nov 2015
297 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:51 pm to
Ah. Good ol’ persuasive authority.
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87727 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:53 pm to
1) No state court is going to respond well to any recycled sovereign citizen argument

2) No lawyers do shite like that

3) That said, no court is going to be mad at you for something like "this is an unresolved question in Alabama, but the Georgia Supreme Court addressed a similar question relating to a nearly-identical statute..."

Posted by Mingo Was His NameO
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2016
37536 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:55 pm to
quote:

Swing and a miss.


Got autocorrected. State courts do not, but can, follow the jurisprudence of another states courts. Same goes for circuit courts. Third circuit isn't bound by 4th circuits decisions.
Posted by sleepytime
Member since Feb 2014
3931 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 2:56 pm to
Well that’s better than what many state court judges seem to be using nowadays such as: their feelings, political ideology, nepotism, cronyism or what other people think is right/wrong.
Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 3:04 pm to
quote:

1) No state court is going to respond well to any recycled sovereign citizen argument

2) No lawyers do shite like that

3) That said, no court is going to be mad at you for something like "this is an unresolved question in Alabama, but the Georgia Supreme Court addressed a similar question relating to a nearly-identical statute..."


Thanks. But using that scenario, while you can present the Georgia argument, an Alabama court can either accept it or toss it out the window?
Posted by NOLA Tiger
New Orleans
Member since Sep 2006
844 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 3:07 pm to
Outside of making a foreign judgment executory here (domesticating a foreign judgment) and dealing with issues of determining personal jurisdiction (i.e. due process in the foreign court), I don't see attorneys using case law from other states. In collection cases I have seen pro se defendants use materials from the internet and some have the sovereign nonsense. Judges usually see it for what it is.
Posted by Mr Wonderful
Love City
Member since Oct 2015
1045 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 3:07 pm to
They laugh.
Posted by TSLG
Member since Mar 2014
6724 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 3:09 pm to
It depends.
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87727 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 3:28 pm to
quote:

Thanks. But using that scenario, while you can present the Georgia argument, an Alabama court can either accept it or toss it out the window?



Correct, although occasionally you'll have a situation where the appellate courts know there is really no guidance on a statute or issue so there is sort of standing precedent that a neighbor state's rulings will have considerable weight.

You'll see this a fair amount when one state copies another state's law and the copying state hasn't had the law on the books long enough to develop their own case law. If the law isn't controversial or the state just has shitty precedent in general (Georgia) that can go on for quite a while.
Posted by Roll Tide Ravens
Birmingham, AL
Member since Nov 2015
51944 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 3:33 pm to
State courts aren’t bound by the decisions of courts in other states, however cases from other states can be persuasive, particularly if they are “on point” and if they are from a nearby state. The court has discretion in how much weight it will give that decision.

I’m a law clerk for a firm and we actually used a Washington case in a brief for an appeal to the Alabama Supreme Court. Our case is unique and there was no on point authority from Alabama or nearby states, but this Washington case was very similar to ours. They don’t have to follow it, or even give it much weight, but it’s not wrong to use it if you think it can help.
This post was edited on 1/8/19 at 3:39 pm
Posted by AMS
Member since Apr 2016
6541 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 3:51 pm to
quote:

Been watching videos of sovereign citizens who upon getting pulled over, keep citing a case called People v. Battle, a California Court of Appeal case from 1975 and they claim it set case law that traffic infractions aren't crime. They insist it's valid even if they aren't even in California apparently.

Does it hold up? Intuitively, I think no, just curious though. .


Their argument doesn't hold up, like at all. Basically people vs battle is about double jeopardy/successive punishments for a related event if you were initially given an infraction, but then later the DA wanted upgrade/add charges of misdemeanor/felony.
breaking traffic rules can sometimes be an infraction, or more serious offenses can be misdemeanor/felonies, but this is irrelevant for the sov cit argument you bring up which I take as basically they dont need to identify because no crime was committed

....But they do need to identify because they already agreed to via their license. And heres the rub, by refusing to provide ID after an infraction you are giving reasonable suspicion that you are driving without a license, which is a crime.

Posted by Lake Vegas Tiger
Lake Vegas
Member since Jun 2014
3298 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 4:24 pm to
they ignore it
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
29108 posts
Posted on 1/8/19 at 4:39 pm to
quote:

Been watching videos of sovereign citizens who upon getting pulled over, keep citing a case called People v. Battle, a California Court of Appeal case from 1975 ...


Don't get the impression that "sovereign citizens" have a clue what they are yammering about.
Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 1/9/19 at 6:03 am to
quote:

Their argument doesn't hold up, like at all. Basically people vs battle is about double jeopardy/successive punishments for a related event if you were initially given an infraction, but then later the DA wanted upgrade/add charges of misdemeanor/felony.
breaking traffic rules can sometimes be an infraction, or more serious offenses can be misdemeanor/felonies, but this is irrelevant for the sov cit argument you bring up which I take as basically they dont need to identify because no crime was committed

....But they do need to identify because they already agreed to via their license. And heres the rub, by refusing to provide ID after an infraction you are giving reasonable suspicion that you are driving without a license, which is a crime.


I wish People v. Battle had been appealed to SCOTUS. Would love to have seen what the Burger court felt.
Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 1/9/19 at 6:05 am to
quote:

Correct, although occasionally you'll have a situation where the appellate courts know there is really no guidance on a statute or issue so there is sort of standing precedent that a neighbor state's rulings will have considerable weight.

You'll see this a fair amount when one state copies another state's law and the copying state hasn't had the law on the books long enough to develop their own case law. If the law isn't controversial or the state just has shitty precedent in general (Georgia) that can go on for quite a while.


Good to know. Thanks!
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