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OT History buffs: Spain joins the Axis
Posted on 1/12/19 at 5:55 pm
Posted on 1/12/19 at 5:55 pm
In our timeline, Spain and Germany were working towards an alliance, but negotiations faltered on demands by Germany of territorial concessions, and demands by Spain of more economic and military aid than Germany was willing to give. In addition, Franco, who may have had some Jewish ancestry, was unnerved once the Holocaust was fully underway. Spain did send a division of "volunteers," which was annihilated on the Eastern Front.
So what happens if they get past these hurdles? Obviously, Gibraltar falls. The Mediterranean is an Axis lake. Egypt probably falls, there's no North Africa campaign, and no invasion of Italy.
OTOH, Germany now has another unreliable ally to prop up. Spain was an economic basket case after the Civil War, which may have rekindled after the losing side figured they had nothing left to lose now with the Gestapo in the picture.
Any thoughts?
So what happens if they get past these hurdles? Obviously, Gibraltar falls. The Mediterranean is an Axis lake. Egypt probably falls, there's no North Africa campaign, and no invasion of Italy.
OTOH, Germany now has another unreliable ally to prop up. Spain was an economic basket case after the Civil War, which may have rekindled after the losing side figured they had nothing left to lose now with the Gestapo in the picture.
Any thoughts?
This post was edited on 1/12/19 at 6:00 pm
15
Posted on 1/12/19 at 5:58 pm to Jim Rockford
I’m entrirwkt too drunk for this. Reconvene Monday?
Posted on 1/12/19 at 5:58 pm to Jim Rockford
Spain would have been a nonfactor either way.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 6:00 pm to Jim Rockford
Andorra would have kicked their arse
Posted on 1/12/19 at 6:11 pm to Jim Rockford
Think Italy, but even more incompetent.
I’m not even sure Gibraltar would’ve fallen with the Royal Navy resupplying. If any difference, Operation Torch might’ve landed near Cadiz to relieve Gibraltar and knock Spain out of the war instead of landing in North Africa.
I’m not even sure Gibraltar would’ve fallen with the Royal Navy resupplying. If any difference, Operation Torch might’ve landed near Cadiz to relieve Gibraltar and knock Spain out of the war instead of landing in North Africa.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 7:08 pm to Jim Rockford
I think another reason I read was that Franco knew he would quickly lose the Canary Islands to England and wanted no part of that and he had doubts as to whether Germany would win.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 7:14 pm to Jim Rockford
Why on earth did Addy have to invade Russia when he did? 
Posted on 1/12/19 at 7:17 pm to SirWinston
quote:
Why on earth did Addy have to invade Russia when he did?
quote:this post, with that user name
SirWinston
MAKES NO frickING SENSE
Posted on 1/12/19 at 7:22 pm to Jim Rockford
Spain was Axis in all but name. Franco was still consolidating power post-Civil War, so he didn't really have manpower to spare, nor did Spain have a navy capable of making a difference against the Americans or British. Spain allowed Hitler to use its ports for U-boats and supported Hitler in other ways.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 7:26 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Spain would have been a nonfactor either way.
This. Imagine another Italy, but one that had just been decimated by a civil war.
The more fun thought would be "what would Europe be like today had Hitler stopped after Austria-Hungary and Czechoslovakia, causing the Brits to never declare war?"
This post was edited on 1/12/19 at 7:27 pm
Posted on 1/12/19 at 7:26 pm to Jim Rockford
So if Italy attacked Spain from the rear, would Greece help?
Posted on 1/12/19 at 7:32 pm to Jim Rockford
After the fall of France, Hitler took a special train west to negotiate with Franco Spain’s entry into the war. After spending a day conferring with El Caudillo (to no avail), he was reputed to have said that he’d rather have every tooth yanked out of his head without anasthetic than to ever go thru an experience like that again.
This post was edited on 1/12/19 at 7:33 pm
Posted on 1/12/19 at 8:29 pm to RazorBroncs
quote:
The more fun thought would be "what would Europe be like today had Hitler stopped after Austria-Hungary and Czechoslovakia, causing the Brits to never declare war?"
Or what would have happened if Hitler didnt invade the USSR and Japan doesn’t attack Pearl Harbor (or attacks a year or 2 later).
Would the US have still went to war in Europe if we hadn’t been attacked by Japan? Would Germany have conquered all of Europe if they would’ve been able to focus everything on the western front against Britain and the French resistance without the US jumping into the war? Would the post-war world have had 3 superpowers or would Germany have replaced the US as the only other superpower besides the Soviet Union?
Posted on 1/12/19 at 8:50 pm to Jim Rockford
Germany participated in the Spanish civil war. They were able to test equipment and tactics prior to war with France/UK. But the civil war made Spain a crumbling mess of a country
Spain couldn’t have aided much.
Spain couldn’t have aided much.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 8:50 pm to STLDawg
quote:
I’m not even sure Gibraltar would’ve fallen with the Royal Navy resupplying. If any difference, Operation Torch might’ve landed near Cadiz to relieve Gibraltar and knock Spain out of the war instead of landing in North Africa.
Maybe but see what German air power did with Malta. Now but those same assets at the bottleneck that is Gibraltar.
Hell, even Axis land artillery would have made a huge impact on shipping going through that narrow channel. The Med would have been effectively closed. Malta no longer interferes with supply runs to the Afrika Korp. Britain can no longer shift troops quickly from Europe to the Middle East. Rommel rolls.
Egypt falls along with the Suez Canal. Pro-Axis forces in Iraq take over and cut the south supply lines to the Soviet Union. Rommel has plans presented the the German High Command to invade the Soviet Union from the south. Oil, a resource the Axis lack, now can flow.
Now, Turkey might come into play, looking to reestablish the former Ottoman land empire. Does the Soviet Union surrender or at least call a ceasefire?
Posted on 1/12/19 at 9:15 pm to OWLFAN86
Churchill was hero. He had no idea his fellow Brits would turn cuck so hard and so fast that England would have been better off had Germany won.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 9:19 pm to SirWinston
The world would have been better if Germany had won the First World War not the second. If the Germans had beaten the French at the first battle of the Marne old Europe would not have been destroyed and we wouldn’t have dealt with the communist insurrections that plagued Europe during and after the war.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 9:24 pm to Jim Rockford
The Axis should have taken Western Europe before they tried to take the USSR.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 9:28 pm to Jim Rockford
If if was a fifth I’d be drunk.
Posted on 1/12/19 at 9:35 pm to kingbob
quote:
Spain allowed Hitler to use its ports for U-boats and supported Hitler in other ways.
The uboat port at the base of the cliff in Cartagena was something that I had couldn't have imagined before seeing it. It was impressive to think how much work that must have gone into tge design and construction.
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