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Started By
Message
On ICU capacity
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:50 am
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:50 am
Do we have enough ventilators? ICU beds? Let’s look at two cases. Two ICUs serving two similar areas and alike in all ways except number of ventilators. They each have need of 100 ventilators for maximum capacity. The first ICU (ICU1) has 100, and the second ICU (ICU2) has 50. Both are at peak (100) demand.
ICU1 puts 100 patients on ventilators and 30 survive with 70 dead (That is the US rates at the moment. The world rate is 16/84).
ICU2 puts each patient on a ventilator, but with 50 in use, the incremental patient must receive a ventilator from an intubated patient, who presumably dies. Doctors would take the ventilator from a patient who has been on it for the longest time and shows the least likelihood of recovering.
All of the above are things that are facts, or can be reasonably assumed. Here is where the guesswork starts. What percentage of the living patients, who had ventilators taken away, would have died anyway? Anecdotal information suggests that almost all of the patients who are on ventilators for more than two weeks die. These are the ones who would be taken off of the ventilators to account for new patients.
What we know is that 50 patients at a time (half), who would otherwise have ventilators, would be deprived of them. Since these are the least likely to survive, I will guess that 3 of the 30 survivors would have come from this group. So 3 of 100, or 3% of those requiring ventilators, would die due to the lack of ventilators.
One study, that often cited, estimated that 900,000 US citizens would require ventilators during this crisis. Most of these would not happen at peak times, but assume half just to be conservative. That’s 450,000 people, and 3% of them would die due to the shortage. That’s 13,500 people we are saving due to flattening the curve.
I used ventilators for this example, but I believe it serves as stand-in for health care capacity as well. Although the 3% estimate would surely be somewhat higher when more than ventilators are considered. Double? Triple? The only way to save more than this is to flatten the curve so much that we prevent infections until after a vaccine. That is not economically acceptable. (Arguments that a price can’t be placed on lives are juvenile and not worthy of rebuttal, so please spare us them.) Therefore, unless the estimates above are radically wrong, we might not be saving very many by social distancing. If the ventilator patients were recovering at a 70% rate, instead of a 30% rate, it would be different.
I still think the right policy is to hold the line on social distancing - increasing it in some areas as the rates take off there - until an area shows 75% diminished infection rates (by more prevalent testing that is being implemented currently) then move to the current S Korean method of everyone back at work and school except those who can work at home. Still no large gatherings, but restaurants are open with diminished occupancy.
I am interested in any anecdotal information from ICU doctors and nurses that refute any of the assumptions here. If they are wrong - if doctors can’t somewhat accurately pick who are likely to die, then this example goes to pieces.
ICU1 puts 100 patients on ventilators and 30 survive with 70 dead (That is the US rates at the moment. The world rate is 16/84).
ICU2 puts each patient on a ventilator, but with 50 in use, the incremental patient must receive a ventilator from an intubated patient, who presumably dies. Doctors would take the ventilator from a patient who has been on it for the longest time and shows the least likelihood of recovering.
All of the above are things that are facts, or can be reasonably assumed. Here is where the guesswork starts. What percentage of the living patients, who had ventilators taken away, would have died anyway? Anecdotal information suggests that almost all of the patients who are on ventilators for more than two weeks die. These are the ones who would be taken off of the ventilators to account for new patients.
What we know is that 50 patients at a time (half), who would otherwise have ventilators, would be deprived of them. Since these are the least likely to survive, I will guess that 3 of the 30 survivors would have come from this group. So 3 of 100, or 3% of those requiring ventilators, would die due to the lack of ventilators.
One study, that often cited, estimated that 900,000 US citizens would require ventilators during this crisis. Most of these would not happen at peak times, but assume half just to be conservative. That’s 450,000 people, and 3% of them would die due to the shortage. That’s 13,500 people we are saving due to flattening the curve.
I used ventilators for this example, but I believe it serves as stand-in for health care capacity as well. Although the 3% estimate would surely be somewhat higher when more than ventilators are considered. Double? Triple? The only way to save more than this is to flatten the curve so much that we prevent infections until after a vaccine. That is not economically acceptable. (Arguments that a price can’t be placed on lives are juvenile and not worthy of rebuttal, so please spare us them.) Therefore, unless the estimates above are radically wrong, we might not be saving very many by social distancing. If the ventilator patients were recovering at a 70% rate, instead of a 30% rate, it would be different.
I still think the right policy is to hold the line on social distancing - increasing it in some areas as the rates take off there - until an area shows 75% diminished infection rates (by more prevalent testing that is being implemented currently) then move to the current S Korean method of everyone back at work and school except those who can work at home. Still no large gatherings, but restaurants are open with diminished occupancy.
I am interested in any anecdotal information from ICU doctors and nurses that refute any of the assumptions here. If they are wrong - if doctors can’t somewhat accurately pick who are likely to die, then this example goes to pieces.
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:52 am to Penrod
You should log off and go for a walk. Look for the bears that people are putting in windows and relax.
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:53 am to Penrod
You have so much bad info in your post
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:58 am to Penrod
It's too early on Sunday for all that BS
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:08 am to hollowpoint
quote:
TLDR?
Doctors should do triage since ventilators may become limited.
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:14 am to Penrod
Every bit of info u used is completely fabricated.... Jesus you fear mongers are sick disgusting people.
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:16 am to chitiger91
He’s a regular loon around here
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:28 am to Penrod
Calm down Francis. This survey was done in 2010. Account for growth in 10 years there is probably only 100,000 vents in the US in hospitals at any given time. That doesn’t mean 100,000 have patients using them. All of the sky screaming does no good if there isn’t enough staff to monitor them or rooms to put them in. People are acting like vents are the magic bullet when actually more than half of patients die when they are put on a vent. We could have a million vents and it would do no good.
LINK /
Responding to the survey were 4305 (74.8%) hospitals, which accounted for 83.8% of US intensive care unit beds. Of the 52,118 full-feature mechanical ventilators owned by respondent hospitals, 24,204 (46.4%) are pediatric/neonatal capable. Accounting for nonrespondents, we estimate that there are 62,188 full-feature mechanical ventilators
LINK /
Responding to the survey were 4305 (74.8%) hospitals, which accounted for 83.8% of US intensive care unit beds. Of the 52,118 full-feature mechanical ventilators owned by respondent hospitals, 24,204 (46.4%) are pediatric/neonatal capable. Accounting for nonrespondents, we estimate that there are 62,188 full-feature mechanical ventilators
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:30 am to FieldEngineer
quote:
Look for the bears that people are putting in windows and relax.
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:30 am to fightin tigers
quote:
You have so much bad info in your post
Name two.
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:33 am to Penrod
Downvote because I’m not reading a novel
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:36 am to Penrod
Anytime you use the word anecdotal assume you have bad info to work with.
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:44 am to Penrod
quote:
One study, that often cited, estimated that 900,000 US citizens would require ventilators during this crisis.
What study is this? Right now there are 125,000 total confirmed cases in the USA. A small percentage of those would need vents. Do you realize how many confirmed positives we would need before we got to 900,000 on vents? Do people think before they post stupid numbers like this?
Posted on 3/29/20 at 10:03 am to Macavity92
No look at his post about 3-4 posts up, he’s asking where in his novel he has bad data.
These people truly are sick, they have some dark twisted desire to see death and the country they live in to falter.
These people truly are sick, they have some dark twisted desire to see death and the country they live in to falter.
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