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On ICU capacity

Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:50 am
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
39084 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:50 am
Do we have enough ventilators? ICU beds? Let’s look at two cases. Two ICUs serving two similar areas and alike in all ways except number of ventilators. They each have need of 100 ventilators for maximum capacity. The first ICU (ICU1) has 100, and the second ICU (ICU2) has 50. Both are at peak (100) demand.

ICU1 puts 100 patients on ventilators and 30 survive with 70 dead (That is the US rates at the moment. The world rate is 16/84).

ICU2 puts each patient on a ventilator, but with 50 in use, the incremental patient must receive a ventilator from an intubated patient, who presumably dies. Doctors would take the ventilator from a patient who has been on it for the longest time and shows the least likelihood of recovering.

All of the above are things that are facts, or can be reasonably assumed. Here is where the guesswork starts. What percentage of the living patients, who had ventilators taken away, would have died anyway? Anecdotal information suggests that almost all of the patients who are on ventilators for more than two weeks die. These are the ones who would be taken off of the ventilators to account for new patients.

What we know is that 50 patients at a time (half), who would otherwise have ventilators, would be deprived of them. Since these are the least likely to survive, I will guess that 3 of the 30 survivors would have come from this group. So 3 of 100, or 3% of those requiring ventilators, would die due to the lack of ventilators.

One study, that often cited, estimated that 900,000 US citizens would require ventilators during this crisis. Most of these would not happen at peak times, but assume half just to be conservative. That’s 450,000 people, and 3% of them would die due to the shortage. That’s 13,500 people we are saving due to flattening the curve.

I used ventilators for this example, but I believe it serves as stand-in for health care capacity as well. Although the 3% estimate would surely be somewhat higher when more than ventilators are considered. Double? Triple? The only way to save more than this is to flatten the curve so much that we prevent infections until after a vaccine. That is not economically acceptable. (Arguments that a price can’t be placed on lives are juvenile and not worthy of rebuttal, so please spare us them.) Therefore, unless the estimates above are radically wrong, we might not be saving very many by social distancing. If the ventilator patients were recovering at a 70% rate, instead of a 30% rate, it would be different.

I still think the right policy is to hold the line on social distancing - increasing it in some areas as the rates take off there - until an area shows 75% diminished infection rates (by more prevalent testing that is being implemented currently) then move to the current S Korean method of everyone back at work and school except those who can work at home. Still no large gatherings, but restaurants are open with diminished occupancy.

I am interested in any anecdotal information from ICU doctors and nurses that refute any of the assumptions here. If they are wrong - if doctors can’t somewhat accurately pick who are likely to die, then this example goes to pieces.
Posted by DomincDecoco
of no fixed abode
Member since Oct 2018
10820 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:52 am to
Thats alot of words
Posted by FieldEngineer
Member since Jan 2015
2115 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:52 am to
You should log off and go for a walk. Look for the bears that people are putting in windows and relax.
Posted by JetsetNuggs
Member since Jun 2014
13876 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:52 am to
Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
73674 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:53 am to
You have so much bad info in your post
Posted by hollowpoint
Texas
Member since Sep 2019
1039 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:55 am to
TLDR?
Posted by SG_Geaux
1 Post
Member since Aug 2004
77924 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:58 am to
It's too early on Sunday for all that BS
Posted by ClampClampington
Nebraska
Member since Jun 2017
3963 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 8:58 am to
Posted by Arkapigdiesel
Arkansas
Member since Jun 2009
13145 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:05 am to
Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
73674 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:08 am to
quote:

TLDR?


Doctors should do triage since ventilators may become limited.
Posted by chitiger91
Lake Bluff IL
Member since Apr 2016
3120 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:14 am to
Every bit of info u used is completely fabricated.... Jesus you fear mongers are sick disgusting people.
Posted by notiger1997
Metairie
Member since May 2009
58088 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:16 am to
He’s a regular loon around here
Posted by GaDawg9977
Member since Aug 2016
2399 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:28 am to
Calm down Francis. This survey was done in 2010. Account for growth in 10 years there is probably only 100,000 vents in the US in hospitals at any given time. That doesn’t mean 100,000 have patients using them. All of the sky screaming does no good if there isn’t enough staff to monitor them or rooms to put them in. People are acting like vents are the magic bullet when actually more than half of patients die when they are put on a vent. We could have a million vents and it would do no good.

LINK /

Responding to the survey were 4305 (74.8%) hospitals, which accounted for 83.8% of US intensive care unit beds. Of the 52,118 full-feature mechanical ventilators owned by respondent hospitals, 24,204 (46.4%) are pediatric/neonatal capable. Accounting for nonrespondents, we estimate that there are 62,188 full-feature mechanical ventilators
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
39084 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:30 am to
quote:

Look for the bears that people are putting in windows and relax.
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
39084 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:30 am to
quote:

You have so much bad info in your post

Name two.
Posted by BeachDude022
Premium Elite Platinum TD Member
Member since Dec 2006
34787 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:33 am to
Downvote because I’m not reading a novel
Posted by fightin tigers
Downtown Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
73674 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:36 am to
Anytime you use the word anecdotal assume you have bad info to work with.
Posted by TheDeathValley
New Orleans, LA
Member since Sep 2010
17141 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:39 am to
Not reading that
Posted by Macavity92
Member since Dec 2004
5981 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 9:44 am to
quote:

One study, that often cited, estimated that 900,000 US citizens would require ventilators during this crisis.


What study is this? Right now there are 125,000 total confirmed cases in the USA. A small percentage of those would need vents. Do you realize how many confirmed positives we would need before we got to 900,000 on vents? Do people think before they post stupid numbers like this?
Posted by chitiger91
Lake Bluff IL
Member since Apr 2016
3120 posts
Posted on 3/29/20 at 10:03 am to
No look at his post about 3-4 posts up, he’s asking where in his novel he has bad data.

These people truly are sick, they have some dark twisted desire to see death and the country they live in to falter.
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