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New report reveals why Boeing's 737 Max has taken so long to return to service
Posted on 11/8/19 at 1:42 pm
Posted on 11/8/19 at 1:42 pm
LINK
quote:
A near-crash during a flight-simulator session in June led to a complete redesign of the Boeing 737 Max's flight computer architecture, according to a new Bloomberg report.
quote:
That redesign is in addition to the software fix to an automated system that caused two fatal crashes. It has led to extensive delays getting the plane back into commercial service.
The flight computer in the 737 Max was initially based on an older version of the 737, but is now considered antiquated. The redesign brings the computer up to modern standards, better able to manage various automated systems.
quote:
But in June, as engineers were almost finished designing the fix, several Boeing pilots got into a flight simulator to test "a few things." That was when a simulated computer glitch caused the plane to point its nose down, diving aggressively like the planes in both crashes.
quote:
The outcome of that simulator flight, a decision to completely redesign the 737 Max's flight computer architecture, led to extensive delays that have dragged on through the summer and fall, and now threaten Boeing's ability to deliver aircraft, book new orders, and maintain revenue expectations.
9
Posted on 11/8/19 at 1:45 pm to RedRifle
Can't wait to see how this thing is gonna kill us in entirely new and innovative ways
Posted on 11/8/19 at 1:46 pm to RedRifle
Found the programmer!
Posted on 11/8/19 at 1:50 pm to RedRifle
Damn shame what happened to a great company in Boeing.
This is what happens when you let the bean counters take too much control of the process and put a price and time limit on safety and quality of the product.
All the billions of dollars they lost on this mess was and still is absolutely deserved.
This is what happens when you let the bean counters take too much control of the process and put a price and time limit on safety and quality of the product.
All the billions of dollars they lost on this mess was and still is absolutely deserved.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 2:03 pm to Sentrius
Wasn't part of the issue with the crashes due to bad or inexperienced pilots?
Posted on 11/8/19 at 2:07 pm to RedRifle
quote:
New report reveals why Boeing's 737 Max has taken so long to return to service
I'll give you a hint: it was the crashes that killed a bunch of people
Posted on 11/8/19 at 2:11 pm to notiger1997
quote:
Wasn't part of the issue with the crashes due to bad or inexperienced pilots?
The follow up question to this you should be asking yourself is why did Boeing put out a shitty product to go with shitty pilots in foreign 3rd world countries?
Boeing fricked up here and the blame lies squarely on them. There is no defense for their willful negligence to cut corners and now they're losing billions as a result.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 2:13 pm to notiger1997
quote:
Wasn't part of the issue with the crashes due to bad or inexperienced pilots?
Sort of
But the plane still shouldnt fly into the ground for no good reason
Posted on 11/8/19 at 2:13 pm to Sentrius
Great time to buy Boeing stock
Posted on 11/8/19 at 2:27 pm to RedRifle
quote:
While the fix originally focused on MCAS, closer scrutiny of the entire plane following the second crash began to look at additional factors, including how pilots would respond to multiple cockpit alarms, and what would happen in both common and extremely remote emergency scenarios.
In the test that led to the computer redesign, Bloomberg reported, Boeing tested what would happen if gamma rays from space corrupted data in the plane's flight-control system — an extraordinarily unlikely scenario, but one which must be addressed to prove to safety regulators that the plane is capable of surviving virtually any possible failure.
In the test, the plane dived toward the ground, and one of the test pilots found it difficult to respond to the various alarms and system failures in time to control the plane.
How likely is this in actual flight versus simulator?
Same symptom but isn’t this different from AOA and MCAS problems; and is difficult to respond equal to crashing in a sim like this?
Also, major redesign makes sense if it’s wasn’t up to modern flight computers, and they had to know it was going to cause delays with approvals.
quote:
Because at least one of the pilots who flew the scenario in a simulator found it difficult to respond in time to maintain control of the plane, it needed to be fixed, according to two people familiar with the results...
...The redesign has also sparked tensions between aviation regulators and the company. As recently as this week, the FAA and European Aviation Safety Agency asked for more documentation of the changes to the computers, said one of the people, potentially delaying the certification further.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-08/delays-in-boeing-max-return-began-with-near-crash-in-simulator
This post was edited on 11/8/19 at 2:47 pm
Posted on 11/8/19 at 2:59 pm to RedRifle
So if I'm reading this right... Boeing designed and shipped this MAX plane without using the latest tech on it? They were using an old/outdated flight control system?
Wow.
What other shortcuts did Boeing take with this bird?
Also, were the sim pilots the great American ones who can never do any wrong, or the crappy foreign ones?
Wow.
What other shortcuts did Boeing take with this bird?
Also, were the sim pilots the great American ones who can never do any wrong, or the crappy foreign ones?
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:05 pm to Sentrius
quote:
Damn shame what happened to a great company in Boeing.
This is what happens when you let the bean counters take too much control of the process and put a price and time limit on safety and quality of the product.
Doesn't a lot of this have to do with how hamstrung they are to actually create a new plane from the ground up due federal regulations and red tape, such that they are forced to instead try to continually update a 50+ year old design?
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:11 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
So if I'm reading this right... Boeing designed and shipped this MAX plane without using the latest tech on it? They were using an old/outdated flight control system?
when you read this stuff, esp. with the 737, read it as:
"southwest demanded it conform to their fleet and cost standards"
and boeing had to design around those constraints.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:17 pm to dallastigers
quote:
Because at least one of the pilots who flew the scenario in a simulator found it difficult to respond in time to maintain control of the plane, it needed to be fixed, according to two people familiar with the results...
But I was told our awesome US pilots would have zero problem with the 737MAX trying to auger itself in.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:17 pm to TheFlyingTiger
quote:
when you read this stuff, esp. with the 737, read it as:
"southwest demanded it conform to their fleet and cost standards"
and boeing had to design around those constraints.
Sometimes, the customer is wrong. And Boeing is paying a much higher price than Southwest is for all of his.
What was Southwest going to do, buy from Airbus? Boeing should have called their bluff. They held the cards, not Southwest.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:20 pm to RedRifle
Engines are too big.
Had to raise them high above the wing which inhibited air flow on wing. Designed software to help counter this effect and help fly plane.
Plane is fundamentally flawed in design and it’s not just software.
Had to raise them high above the wing which inhibited air flow on wing. Designed software to help counter this effect and help fly plane.
Plane is fundamentally flawed in design and it’s not just software.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:21 pm to Cosmo
quote:
But the plane still shouldnt fly into the ground for no good reason
What if it's got a really good reason?
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:22 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
They held the cards, not Southwest.
every iteration of the 737 since the 300(I think) was built according to SWA specs.
they're a 737 ONLY airline and they operate over 700 of them.
hard to say no to that guy, especially when you're consistently knocking it out the park.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 3:26 pm to TheFlyingTiger
quote:
they're a 737 ONLY airline and they operate over 700 of them.
I get that. But times eventually change.
quote:
hard to say no to that guy, especially when you're consistently knocking it out the park
But eventually a HR hitter is going to strike out... which is what happened here. They went too far.
Again... who really held the cards here? If Boeing tells SWA, hey, we've reached the end of the line, we are going to build something new that will be different and that's all we can do... was SWA really going to go to Airbus? I would think for purposes of efficency at SWA, a second type of Boeing aircraft would be better than one Boeing and one Airbus.
Instead, Boeing let their corporate greed and ego get the best of them.
This post was edited on 11/8/19 at 3:27 pm
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