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re: Muhammed Ali... American Hero?
Posted on 6/11/16 at 1:36 pm to BayouBengals1209
Posted on 6/11/16 at 1:36 pm to BayouBengals1209
Such an original thread.
0
Posted on 6/11/16 at 2:26 pm to BayouBengals1209
Just now I found this blurb for the book Sucker Punch: The Hard Left Hook That Dazed Ali and Killed King's Dream by Jack Cashill:
quote:
Part man, part myth, and all American, Muhammad Ali is history's most beloved, most revered athlete. But though he was "The Greatest" inside the ring, outside he was a hulking mass of contradictions.
This book is the first comprehensive, pull-no-punches account of America's least likely icon. Jack Cashill explores the changing mores and racial dynamics of the sixties alongside Ali's epic battles in the ring. "What Ali did, great or otherwise, was to channel the spirit of his age. . . . He captured the ethos of that decade all too well. It wasn't pretty. I was there, and I know what I saw."
Cashill reveals how Elijah Muhammad seduced Ali--and how that seduction spelled the betrayal of Dr. King's dream, the death of Malcolm X, the humiliation of Joe Frazier, the rise of Don King, and the tragic undoing of Mike Tyson--and proves that:
*Ali was an unapologetic sexist and unabashed racist, calling for the lynching of interracial couples and an American apartheid as late as 1975.
*Ali routinely denigrated black heroes who did not share his point of view, including Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson, Thurgood Marshall, and especially Joe Frazier.
*Ali shamelessly courted some of the most brutal dictators on the planet: Qadaffi, Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier, Nkrumah, Mobutu, and Ferdinand Marcos.
With unusual sympathy and unflinching insight, Cashill assesses Ali's boxing conquests and political influence. He shows how the very figure who could have brought America's diverse people together when it mattered, instead tore them apart.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 2:33 pm to Kafka
This post sums up Ali better than anything else said on this thread. Ali is no hero or icon, he just has been out of the public eye long enough to forget how big a POS he really was
This post was edited on 6/11/16 at 2:41 pm
Posted on 6/11/16 at 2:39 pm to BayouBengals1209
quote:
my dad about lost his shite
Sorry about the dumb genes
Posted on 6/11/16 at 2:48 pm to BayouBengals1209
vietnam war wasnt really a war for freedom
Posted on 6/11/16 at 2:48 pm to BayouBengals1209
quote:
>PLAYBOY: You're beginning to sound like a carbon copy of a white racist. Let's get it out front: Do you believe that lynching is the answer to interracial sex? ALI: A black man should be killed if he's messing with a white woman. And white men have always done that. They lynched n****rs for even looking at a white woman; they'd call it reckless eyeballing and bring out the rope. Raping, patting, mischief, abusing, showing our women disrespect -- a man should die for that. And not just white men -- black men, too. We will kill you, and the brothers who don't kill you will get their behinds whipped and probably get killed themselves if they let it happen and don't do nothin' about it. Tell it to the President -- he ain't gonna do nothin' about it. Tell it to the FBI: We'll kill anybody who tries to mess around with our women. Ain't nobody gonna bother them.
Black power
Posted on 6/11/16 at 3:45 pm to Boo Krewe
quote:
vietnam war wasnt really a war for freedom
You think the South Vietnamese thought this was the case.
It wasn't for us. It was another effort at a failed attempt to stop Russian aggression.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 3:49 pm to BamaCoaster
quote:
Not serving your country and speaking out against the unjustifiable invasion was your patriotic duty.
No it wasn't. Why? Because that is not why he refused. Try learning something about the history of C. Clay.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 3:51 pm to BayouBengals1209
#1. Sports figures cannot be heros based on some natural skills alone.
#2. He grew up during a dark era for the black man. This would effect his life decisions.
#3. He became a part of the movement that ultimately gave that black man the same rights as everyone else. I'll allow that he could be hailed a hero for that.
#4. He dodged the draft claiming religious reasons. The fact is he was influenced by Elijah Muhammad. Elijah was a conscientious objector to WWII. Elijah wrote ""When the call [to register for the draft] was made for all males between 18 and 44, I refused (NOT EVADED) on the grounds that, first, I was a Muslim and would not take part in war and especially not on the side with the infidels.” In fact, Elijah Muhammad encouraged blacks to support the Japanese against the U.S. He also established NOI's paramilitary wing, the Fruit of Islam (FOI),...". This influence caused him hate for America. He refused the draft for this reason, not religious reasons. ... Perhaps some haters of America may find this to place him as some sort of hero. Not me! Of note is he never used anything concerning the actual war in Vietnam. He was not standing up to the gov't due to some deep understanding of the war as some might suggest. I found indications that he knew nothing about that war at that time.
Therefore while he may be a hero to some I find him to be an unapologetic hater of America due to refusing the draft based on fake religious reasons ... that is unless you regard hating America as a religion. ... but then I am a bit biased as I was drafted less than 2 years later. I heeded the call as did so many others, black and white, even though I did not agree with the way the war was being fought. Now while I am certainly no hero he sure da fuk ain't either.
One thing Clay probably did not know is that we were all treated as equals in the Army. 1969 and everyone was separated only by rank.
#2. He grew up during a dark era for the black man. This would effect his life decisions.
#3. He became a part of the movement that ultimately gave that black man the same rights as everyone else. I'll allow that he could be hailed a hero for that.
#4. He dodged the draft claiming religious reasons. The fact is he was influenced by Elijah Muhammad. Elijah was a conscientious objector to WWII. Elijah wrote ""When the call [to register for the draft] was made for all males between 18 and 44, I refused (NOT EVADED) on the grounds that, first, I was a Muslim and would not take part in war and especially not on the side with the infidels.” In fact, Elijah Muhammad encouraged blacks to support the Japanese against the U.S. He also established NOI's paramilitary wing, the Fruit of Islam (FOI),...". This influence caused him hate for America. He refused the draft for this reason, not religious reasons. ... Perhaps some haters of America may find this to place him as some sort of hero. Not me! Of note is he never used anything concerning the actual war in Vietnam. He was not standing up to the gov't due to some deep understanding of the war as some might suggest. I found indications that he knew nothing about that war at that time.
Therefore while he may be a hero to some I find him to be an unapologetic hater of America due to refusing the draft based on fake religious reasons ... that is unless you regard hating America as a religion. ... but then I am a bit biased as I was drafted less than 2 years later. I heeded the call as did so many others, black and white, even though I did not agree with the way the war was being fought. Now while I am certainly no hero he sure da fuk ain't either.
One thing Clay probably did not know is that we were all treated as equals in the Army. 1969 and everyone was separated only by rank.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 4:02 pm to BayouBengals1209
Hero? Hell no. Good man? Probably so. I wouldn't think anything about his draft dodging if we hadn't had any casualties in Vietnam. But we had 58+k.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 4:16 pm to BayouBengals1209
To a lot of people he certainly was. Why debate it?
Posted on 6/11/16 at 4:24 pm to nc14
quote:
To a lot of people he certainly was. Why debate it?
Posted on 6/11/16 at 4:31 pm to Kafka
Exactly. Debating in here just becomes immature name calling. I can't define American hero for anyone but myself so it becomes futile. But Ali was hero to some and opposite for others. I do not personally consider him one of my heroes but he is undoubtedly famous, popular and great boxer/athlete.
War heroes are on a different level all together. Much respect.
War heroes are on a different level all together. Much respect.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 4:38 pm to uway
quote:
ALI: A black man should be killed if he's messing with a white woman.
One of the major things Ali was fricking wrong about
I respect his impact and influence as a sportsman. From a social standpoint, not so much.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 4:53 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I served in Iraq with a former NBA player (Tim James, of Miami Heat and U of Miami fame).
I had no idea Tim James was in the military, wow. Good on him. Guy was a damned baller. I remember his Miami team beine one of 2 teams to beat UCONN in '99 when they won the title with Rip Hamilton and El Amin.
This post was edited on 6/11/16 at 8:15 pm
Posted on 6/11/16 at 5:00 pm to TbirdSpur2010
I am 66 and I was lucky enough to get into the National Guard in 1969. I served my 6 years doing the monthly drills and the 2 week summer camps. I thank God I was lucky enough to have been spared the Vietnam experience or else my name would have been on the Wall in Washington. I do feel guilty at times when I realize the burden others had to shoulder.
Ali's later life made have almost made up for the person he was in the 60's and 70's. But just like Jane Fonda and those who ran off to Canada, you are traitors and cowards and you will never get my respect.
Did Ali ever go the the Vietnam Wall in Washington and apologize to the 58,000 names for letting them shoulder the burden?
Ali's later life made have almost made up for the person he was in the 60's and 70's. But just like Jane Fonda and those who ran off to Canada, you are traitors and cowards and you will never get my respect.
Did Ali ever go the the Vietnam Wall in Washington and apologize to the 58,000 names for letting them shoulder the burden?
Posted on 6/11/16 at 5:00 pm to ULSU
Regardless if Vietnam was a war on freedom or not, or some of you said "would he really have mattered if we had another foot soldier in Vietnam"... it is the fact that he got called upon and he said no, yet he enjoyed the freedoms of the USA all of his life, coward.
Ted wWilliams, Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra... ALL american icons and heroes.
I forgot the name of the guy who took the flag that some guy tried to burn in the outfield during a major league game, but would Ali have saved the flag if someone did that in the ring?
Ted wWilliams, Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra... ALL american icons and heroes.
I forgot the name of the guy who took the flag that some guy tried to burn in the outfield during a major league game, but would Ali have saved the flag if someone did that in the ring?
Posted on 6/11/16 at 5:12 pm to BayouBengals1209
quote:
t is the fact that he got called upon and he said no, yet he enjoyed the freedoms of the USA all of his life,
No he didnt. He paid the price for not going. Same price any other citizen would have paid. Thousands and thousands of young white men that came from families of any kinds of means were avoiding that fiasco at all costs. Half this board probably has father's and uncles whose parents had conversations with them about how to not get drafted.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 5:13 pm to Purplehaze
quote:
Did Ali ever go the the Vietnam Wall in Washington and apologize to the 58,000 names for letting them shoulder the burden?
yea, cause he marched them off to their deaths. fricking idiot. You're saying he should have gone over their to be a propaganda tool as more and more men were led to the meat grinder.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 5:15 pm to BayouBengals1209
No more than any other athlete. 
In the grand scheme, their relevance and importance is vastly overblown.
In the grand scheme, their relevance and importance is vastly overblown.
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