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Message
re: Muhammed Ali... American Hero?
Posted on 6/11/16 at 10:49 am to BayouBengals1209
Posted on 6/11/16 at 10:49 am to BayouBengals1209
#1. Sports figures cannot be heros based on some natural skills alone.
#2. He grew up during a dark era for the black man. This would effect his life decisions.
#3. He became a part of the movement that ultimately gave that black man the same rights as everyone else. I'll allow that he could be hailed a hero for that.
#4. He dodged the draft claiming religious reasons. The fact is he was influenced by Elijah Muhammad. Elijah was a conscientious objector to WWII. Elijah wrote ""When the call [to register for the draft] was made for all males between 18 and 44, I refused (NOT EVADED) on the grounds that, first, I was a Muslim and would not take part in war and especially not on the side with the infidels.” In fact, Elijah Muhammad encouraged blacks to support the Japanese against the U.S. He also established NOI's paramilitary wing, the Fruit of Islam (FOI),...". This influence caused him hate for America. He refused the draft for this reason, not religious reasons. ... Perhaps some haters of America may find this to place him as some sort of hero. Not me! Of note is he never used anything concerning the actual war in Vietnam. He was not standing up to the gov't due to some deep understanding of the war as some might suggest. I found indications that he knew nothing about that war at that time.
Therefore while he may be a hero to some I find him to be an unapologetic hater of America due to refusing the draft based on fake religious reasons ... that is unless you regard hating America as a religion. ... but then I am a bit biased as I was drafted less than 2 years later. I heeded the call as did so many others, black and white, even though I did not agree with the way the war was being fought. Now while I am certainly no hero he sure da fuk ain't either.
One thing Clay probably did not know is that we were all treated as equals in the Army. 1969 and everyone was separated only by rank.
#2. He grew up during a dark era for the black man. This would effect his life decisions.
#3. He became a part of the movement that ultimately gave that black man the same rights as everyone else. I'll allow that he could be hailed a hero for that.
#4. He dodged the draft claiming religious reasons. The fact is he was influenced by Elijah Muhammad. Elijah was a conscientious objector to WWII. Elijah wrote ""When the call [to register for the draft] was made for all males between 18 and 44, I refused (NOT EVADED) on the grounds that, first, I was a Muslim and would not take part in war and especially not on the side with the infidels.” In fact, Elijah Muhammad encouraged blacks to support the Japanese against the U.S. He also established NOI's paramilitary wing, the Fruit of Islam (FOI),...". This influence caused him hate for America. He refused the draft for this reason, not religious reasons. ... Perhaps some haters of America may find this to place him as some sort of hero. Not me! Of note is he never used anything concerning the actual war in Vietnam. He was not standing up to the gov't due to some deep understanding of the war as some might suggest. I found indications that he knew nothing about that war at that time.
Therefore while he may be a hero to some I find him to be an unapologetic hater of America due to refusing the draft based on fake religious reasons ... that is unless you regard hating America as a religion. ... but then I am a bit biased as I was drafted less than 2 years later. I heeded the call as did so many others, black and white, even though I did not agree with the way the war was being fought. Now while I am certainly no hero he sure da fuk ain't either.
One thing Clay probably did not know is that we were all treated as equals in the Army. 1969 and everyone was separated only by rank.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 10:49 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
The answer and issue are very complex.
As complicated as the 60's. People who weren't even alive then (myself included) can't just blurt out "draft dodger" and all else is meaningless.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 10:50 am to BayouBengals1209
quote:
when HIS country needed him the most.
That was was stupid, and we only went into it to prop up the Military Industrial complex. Why no one listened to Ike will never cease to amaze me. He knew the US had to be in a perpetual state of war to keep our industry we built in WW2 going, and we see that constantly.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 10:51 am to BayouBengals1209
My sister in law posted on Facebook after his passing that he was a great hero. I told her that she isn't the kind of person I want around my twins when they are born. She was devestated.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 10:57 am to LSU alum wannabe
quote:
I would not want to serve with someone that famous.
I served in Iraq with a former NBA player (Tim James, of Miami Heat and U of Miami fame). He kept it quiet, but someone from the team blabbed to the press, so they came and did an article on him.
It wasn't anything like Jimmy Stewart or Clark Gable, but interesting nonetheless.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 10:57 am to BayouBengals1209
Let's get one thing straight here:
America had no business in Vietnam.
Not serving your country and speaking out against the unjustifiable invasion was your patriotic duty.
America had no business in Vietnam.
Not serving your country and speaking out against the unjustifiable invasion was your patriotic duty.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:00 am to TigerFanatic99
quote:
My sister in law posted on Facebook after his passing that he was a great hero. I told her that she isn't the kind of person I want around my twins when they are born. She was devestated.
If you make judgements against family based on personal beliefs of trivial matters then maybe it's you who should be avoided.
Just saying. My family ranges from socialist left to religious right and I love them all.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:00 am to Redbone
quote:
Therefore while he may be a hero to some I find him to be an unapologetic hater of America due to refusing the draft based on fake religious reasons ... that is unless you regard hating America as a religion. ... but then I am a bit biased as I was drafted less than 2 years later. I heeded the call as did so many others, black and white, even though I did not agree with the way the war was being fought. Now while I am certainly no hero he sure da fuk ain't either.
He's definitely more of a hero than you.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:04 am to BayouBengals1209
Without a doubt, can't fault anyone for not going to that stupid war and certainly not someone who was called a "****" in his hometown after winning gold for the USA. He had every right to give the man the finger, and he didn't run away to Canada either.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:06 am to golftigers
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/11/16 at 11:08 am
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:09 am to BayouBengals1209
How many celebrities fought in the vietnam war? Im talking famous during that war not years after
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:13 am to 777Tiger
Loud mouth boxers don't fall into my description of American heros. There's a lot of men and women that aren't famous who gets more respect from me than that fella'. Great athlete, sure, hero, hell no.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:27 am to JJBTiger2012
Hero is a term that gets thrown around way too loosely, mostly by people who don't know what a true hero is.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:36 am to Byron Bojangles III
quote:
He stood up for his religious beliefs.
So he couldn't serve and protect his country due to his peaceful religious beliefs, but he could punch people until they lose consciousness, got it. Was a great athlete yes, but he was far from an American hero.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:41 am to BayouBengals1209
Probably right along now he is a firefighter.
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:47 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Malcolm X was killed when he turned away from the hatred and racism of the NOI, just to be completely fair to him.
And Ali converted to mainstream Muslim several years ago, after he figured out the NOI was clearly using him. He remained Muslim throughout his life. When he was still able to sign autographs publicly, he'd also give you a card regarding the Muslim faith. There were people here who were not happy with Louis Farrakhan's presence at the Muslim prayer service because of Ali's movement away from the NOI.
I don't know that I'd call him a hero. And I certainly don't agree with some of his personal and political stances. But to deny that he was influential and impactful is downplaying his presence outside of the ring. The Supreme Court overturned his conviction for "draft dodging", which had a significant impact on serving as a religious person (not just Muslim) and further bringing to light the discontent with the Vietnam War. I can also see where people of the Muslim faith here in the U.S. embrace him. And he lived in Louisville at a time when there were race riots and a lot of racial discord. So I can understand his complex coming from that.
There was a lot of revisionist history in the celebration of his life over the last couple of days, but he was still polarizing nonetheless. And important.
This post was edited on 6/11/16 at 11:50 am
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:52 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
There was a lot of revisionist history in the celebration of his life over the last couple of days
winner of the understatement of the week award, bravo, sir!
Posted on 6/11/16 at 11:59 am to 777Tiger
I mean, he's no Caitlyn Jenner
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