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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:00 pm to DabosDynasty
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:00 pm to DabosDynasty
Someone post shirtless Putin on a horse
1
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:13 pm to siliconvalleytiger
How do we get this stickied again? Kind of butthurt it’s not anymkre
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:15 pm to TigerMan327
quote:
How do we get this stickied again?
It won't be. Too many complaints from the poliboard, and people here to who don't give a shite about anything but their truck nuts sale prices.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:15 pm to TigerMan327
quote:
Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
How do we get this stickied again?
Bump it?
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:16 pm to Centinel
quote:
Too many complaints from the poliboard,
If only they…had their own board
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:18 pm to Centinel
quote:
t amazes me to see people sitting back enjoying the past 100 years of peace and easy living in this country, and not having a goddamn clue how that has been maintained.
I wish it was just people being clueless. In today’s political climate the left largely tells people we aren’t really a force for good in building this relatively peaceful world order and the current iteration of the right largely tells people we are a bunch of saps and blind cucks for maintaining global well being.
There are just so many people bought into some version of doomsday they struggle to see the basic fact that the US remains the wealthiest liberal democracy and the one with the best demographics by far. There is no better alternative to Pax America on the horizon and hopefully we aren’t so petty to fracture and throw it away.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:29 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
100% agree, I just can’t decide if an unintended consequence we see as a victory today is China adjusts and moves at a time much less convenient for the west, and most specifically us. We have growing and very severe underlying economic and societal issues. If we delayed their debut on the global stage with the big boys 10-20 years I fear that helps them far more than us.
As much as China likes to play the long game, they don't have unlimited time. 10-20 years from now they will be in the midst of an accelerating demographic crisis and most likely will have had to navigate a dangerous succession process from Xi to whomever follows him. And it's clear like never before that we're developing new technology faster than they can steal it. They'll be even further behind the curve.
If I was Elon I would start smuggling Starlink consoles into China for shits and giggles.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:36 pm to Jim Rockford
I have no idea how long it would take to correct, but I assume a significant amount of time and exorbitant amount of money, but if Chinese military strategy is similar to Russian strategy and certainly they have a ton of Russian equipment, they can’t move any time soon with an expectation we support the invaded as we have Ukraine, particularly if that nation starts from a better place than Ukraine. To me, again assumption, that’s got to be a decade plus.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:39 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
but if Chinese military strategy is similar to Russian strategy and certainly they have a ton of Russian equipment, they can’t move any time soon with an expectation we support the invaded as we have Ukraine, particularly if that nation starts from a better place than Ukraine. To me, again assumption, that’s got to be a decade plus.
Don't think China isn't watching this war of NATO vs. the East with serious interest.
They will adapt. Unlike Russia, they will correct the doctrinal problems. But on a positive not, they will take a step back and realize they don't want our heat. And how easily we sling it across the entire planet.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:40 pm to Centinel
Per Wikipedia, this is the full text of the memorandum.
Which paragraph states that the US will provide assistance to Ukraine?
Or is there another treaty (ratified) that does?
Trying to understand the legal basis and the extent of our apparent obligation...
"The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as non-nuclear-weapon State,
Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,
Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.
Confirm the following:
1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State.
6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.
—?Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons"
Which paragraph states that the US will provide assistance to Ukraine?
Or is there another treaty (ratified) that does?
Trying to understand the legal basis and the extent of our apparent obligation...
"The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as non-nuclear-weapon State,
Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,
Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.
Confirm the following:
1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State.
6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.
—?Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons"
This post was edited on 5/14/22 at 9:58 pm
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:41 pm to DabosDynasty
Ukraine was able to effectively sweep the western Black Sea with a few drones and a battery of homemade antiship missiles. Any country that aspires to an amphibious capability will have to figure out how to deal with that reality, and not just China.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:44 pm to Centinel
quote:
Certain people in this thread are unable to comprehend second and third order affects geopolitically. Which is rather funny, because it's the same thing they accuse their opponents of doing domestically.
I can’t understand why some people that post on a southern college football message board carry water for Russia. Russia isn’t our friend, they never really were. The feelings towards the current administration, as bad as they are shouldn’t cloud anyone’s judgment when it comes to what Russia is trying to do. In a perfect world the US would have had several extra bombs to spare after Japan and we wouldn’t be dealing with this now.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:45 pm to Centinel
quote:
Don't think China isn't watching this war of NATO vs. the East with serious interest.
They will adapt. Unlike Russia, they will correct the doctrinal problems. But on a positive not, they will take a step back and realize they don't want our heat. And how easily we sling it across the entire planet.
Agree, but how long does that take and where are we domestically when it’s ready for trial run?
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:54 pm to gizmothepug
quote:
I can’t understand why some people that post on a southern college football message board carry water for Russia. Russia isn’t our friend, they never really were. The feelings towards the current administration, as bad as they are shouldn’t cloud anyone’s judgment when it comes to what Russia is trying to do. In a perfect world the US would have had several extra bombs to spare after Japan and we wouldn’t be dealing with this now.
Some people really do crave an authoritarian telling them what to do and what to think. They see Putin riding a horse barechested and doing judo and they pop wood. Others would do anything to sabotage the democrats, even to the detriment of their own country (there are democrats who would do the same to republicans). Some are just dyed in the wool isolationists. Some believe whatever meme they saw last on Facebook. Some bought into the Q nonsense and think Putin is leading the fight against the Soros cabal.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 9:59 pm to TigersnJeeps
quote:
Which paragraph states that the US will provide assistance to Ukraine?
The relevant portion of the text would be:
quote:
4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
But it goes beyond the text of the agreement to the understanding that was reached between US and Ukrainian negotiators. Here is an article (from before the latest Russian invasion) that describes the background pretty well:
quote:
Some have argued that, since the United States did not invade Ukraine, it abided by its Budapest Memorandum commitments. True, in a narrow sense. However, when negotiating the security assurances, U.S. officials told their Ukrainian counterparts that, were Russia to violate them, the United States would take a strong interest and respond.
Washington did not promise unlimited support. The Budapest Memorandum contains security “assurances,” not “guarantees.” Guarantees would have implied a commitment of American military force, which NATO members have. U.S. officials made clear that was not on offer. Hence, assurances.
Legally speaking, one could argue that the US has fulfilled its obligation under the treaty. As I said earlier, it now comes down to the practical implications. How do our actions (or inactions) affect our ability to facilitate non-proliferation deals in the future? It’s not black and white by any means, but the outcome in Ukraine will ultimately be a huge factor in how nations/actors interpret the success/failure of the Budapest Memorandum in the future.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 10:01 pm to DabosDynasty
Macron trying to get Zelenskyy to give Putin something to save face
I thought La Pen was the pro-Russian candidate?
quote:
French President Emmanuel Macron asked Ukraine to make concessions on its sovereignty to help Russian leader Vladimir Putin save face, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said.
In an interview with Italian TV channel RAI’s “Porta a Porta” talk show broadcast Thursday evening, Zelenskyy was asked about Macron’s comments on Monday, in which he warned Europe must avoid humiliating Putin.
“We want the Russian army to leave our land — we aren’t on Russian soil,” Zelenskyy replied. “We won’t help Putin save face by paying with our territory. That would be unjust.” Zelenskyy added that Ukraine would never recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea.
I thought La Pen was the pro-Russian candidate?
This post was edited on 5/14/22 at 10:02 pm
Posted on 5/14/22 at 10:03 pm to DabosDynasty
I have read that they (Chicoms) are already looking at the American command structure and how to duplicate it in their military.
Even Lukashenko of Belarus was recently complimenting the Ukrainian army and it's effectiveness. Said that Belarus could learn from it. LOL.
In another note:
Erdogan of Turkey is raising concerns and may be opposed to Finland and Sweden joining Nato. He said that he has concerns because those two countries harbor terrorists in his words. He is after something. I wonder what he is wanting? He will bargain on anything/everything.
Erdogan is a loose cannon. You never know where he stands or what he will do from day to day. Hard man to figure out. For example: his relationship with Russia and Putin. One day it's a love affair and the next Turkey is doing everything to throw a monkey wrench into Russia's affairs. In the long run, Erdogan is for Erdogan.
Even Lukashenko of Belarus was recently complimenting the Ukrainian army and it's effectiveness. Said that Belarus could learn from it. LOL.
In another note:
Erdogan of Turkey is raising concerns and may be opposed to Finland and Sweden joining Nato. He said that he has concerns because those two countries harbor terrorists in his words. He is after something. I wonder what he is wanting? He will bargain on anything/everything.
Erdogan is a loose cannon. You never know where he stands or what he will do from day to day. Hard man to figure out. For example: his relationship with Russia and Putin. One day it's a love affair and the next Turkey is doing everything to throw a monkey wrench into Russia's affairs. In the long run, Erdogan is for Erdogan.
This post was edited on 5/14/22 at 10:14 pm
Posted on 5/14/22 at 10:04 pm to DabosDynasty
Macron can go kick rocks.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 10:11 pm to DabosDynasty
Are they really going to try to cross that river again?
quote:
Ukraine prepares for the massive Russian attack in Luhansk Oblast to encircle Severodonetsk. Russian troops are preparing new attempts to cross the Siverskyi Donets river. They have brought 2,500 different vehicles & tanks of reinforcements.
Posted on 5/14/22 at 10:13 pm to AU86
quote:
Erdogan of Turkey is raising concerns and may be opposed to Finland and Sweden joining Nato. He said that he has concerns because those two countries harbor terrorists in his words. He is after something. I wonder what he is wanting?
I think the issue is US support for the free Syrians and the Kurds.
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