re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

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If the west would get their arms shipments to Ukraine in a timely manner and keep from blabbing about Ukraine's plans to the media this would be a different war.

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Telegraphing plans and restrictions is really dumb.

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Aren't you one of the people who thinks the Maiden revolution was CIA plot?

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I'm not sure I've ever stated a position on this. I think it's entirely possible the revolution had foreign players, including us, and I'd be shocked if anyone is 100% certain that wasn't a possibility. I'm not 100% certain we did play a significant role, but again, I wouldn't be surprised.

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We know that you are wrong on your characterization as those of us who want to see Ukraine maintain its independence and territorial integrity and the USA to honor the promise it made as war mongers or people who want the USA to get more involved.

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As to the last part...is there any dispute that you want the USA to get more involved? Don't you admit that daily?

Regardless, this has nothing to do with my position that anyone not heavily scrutinizing these decisions and leaving ample room for the possibility that you're getting it wrong or at least that there may be serious, unintended consequences - needs some serious reflection. I'm not sure how anyone can look at the history of our interventionism, intelligence community activity, etc. and not be of that mind.

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Then the US, Russia and the UK shouldn’t have guaranteed to insure their sovereignty.

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We didn't guarantee their sovereignty. We 'respected' it. No defense treaty. No defense obligation. We are not legally bound in any way to give even a fraction of a cent to help Ukraine.

Some in Russia believe we promised no expansion of NATO (and its reported some of our diplomats said as much to to them), but as commonly referenced here Russia didn't get it in writing so they have no basis for a grievance. Ukraine should have gotten it in writing.

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I'm very skeptical of the ability of people with relatively little individual political capital to assess the interests of the US.

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You're like half a ball hair away from basically saying we should just have an emperor who controls everything. The regular people are unable to assess the situation!

"We know whats good for them better than they do"

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Aren't you one of the people who thinks the Maiden revolution was CIA plot?


I'm not sure I've ever stated a position on this. I think it's entirely possible the revolution had foreign players, including us, and I'd be shocked if anyone is 100% certain that wasn't a possibility. I'm not 100% certain we did play a significant role, but again, I wouldn't be surprised.

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I was asking that question honestly. I cannot remember who all is in which camp. Certain posters like Lima Whiskey and GOP_Tiger are easy to keep up with the others start to blur together.

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We know that you are wrong on your characterization as those of us who want to see Ukraine maintain its independence and territorial integrity and the USA to honor the promise it made as war mongers or people who want the USA to get more involved.


As to the last part...is there any dispute that you want the USA to get more involved? Don't you admit that daily?

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I have never once said that I wanted the USA to get involved in the war. In fact I have said the opposite. I have posted in this thread that I though sending NATO troops into Ukraine or having western contractors based in Ukraine to maintain or operate western equipment in Ukraine.

It is Ukraine's fight, they get to make the call when they want to throw in the towel. Ideally that would be after Ukraine has driven Russia out but that is looking less and less likely to happen. The USA and the UK and the EU have given Ukraine security guarantees over the decades. My positions are simple. Support Ukraine until they decide to throw in the towel. Help them negotiate the most favorable peace they can once they decide to throw in the towel. Stay out of the war unless Russia attacks a NATO nation, in which case unleash hell on them and wage war against them with a fury that would give Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun erections.

The coalition of GOPe cucks and filthy leftists who support this evil war continues to astound. There is not a more vile contingent of posters on TD than in this ghoulish thread

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I'm very skeptical of the ability of people with relatively little individual political capital to assess the interests of the US.

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I don't believe powerless people know what's good for the country.

I think that says more your disdain for ordinary people than anything else

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And you're more or less implying that is the 'correct' position

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What? I'm not implying anything. The longer argument is that the US took a maximalist position after the end of the CW, as evidenced by the Wolfowitz and Bush Doctrines, and has consistently acted in that manner even when they sought multi-lateral support. I'm suggesting that the US, in this effort, hasn't acted any differently from how it previously acted. And ultimately, it is more difficult for the US to change course from the underlying principle of how the US elite sees the world, even with Trump, as I don't even see Trump as much of a departure from US foreign policy generally. I tend to value descriptions of current affairs which reflect the US's positions and for that reason, maybe it appears that I support a maximalist position. I have not expressed a preference other than to say that taking a maximalist approach to this ensures conflict, which all my posts about the end of this phase of the conflict reflect. That's not a personal preference for how I want the world to be, it's what I think the evidence on the ground suggests.

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think part of the disconnect/distrust there is that people who are less supportive of Ukraine don't believe the narrative coming from the 'ruling class'. Its more or less the same ruling class that had us in Afghanistan and Iraq, and who were taught by those before them in the ruling class that got us into Vietnam

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But the narrative doesn't matter and generally doesn't matter. Some of the largest organized protests in human history occurred in the lead up to the 2nd Iraq War, and that group who expressed skepticism about that adventure was completely sidelined from foreign policy discussions for at least 2 decades. And that anti-war organization and support, which exceeds the current isolationist position by several orders of magnitude, led to absolutely nothing in terms of preventing the war. It's not all that crazy to suggest that an unorganized group which regularly accuses random individuals of being 'warmongers' of not having the political capital to affect change they want.

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We didn't guarantee their sovereignty. We 'respected' it. No defense treaty. No defense obligation. We are not legally bound in any way to give even a fraction of a cent to help Ukraine.
Some in Russia believe we promised no expansion of NATO (and its reported some of our diplomats said as much to to them), but as commonly referenced here Russia didn't get it in writing so they have no basis for a grievance. Ukraine should have gotten it in writing.

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The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances comprises three substantially identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary, on 5 December 1994, to provide security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). The three memoranda were originally signed by three nuclear powers: Russia, the United States and the United Kingdom.[1] China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.

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