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Started By
Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 9/25/24 at 5:14 am to doubleb
Posted on 9/25/24 at 5:14 am to doubleb
quote:The US has agreed to many things. So, by the way, has Ukraine. Assurances were given. Promises were made. Money was exchanged. Parties were satisfied at the time.
Both Russia and the US agreed to stand up and support Ukrainian sovereignty if Ukraine would give up their nukes. We are honoring our end of the bargain, Russia is not.
Now folks claim the promises were not really promises. The assurances were not really assurances. They claim there was no assurance given to the USSR regarding eastward expansion of NATO subsequent to German reunification. Nor, they claim, was the Budapest Memorandum an actual treaty, and as a memorandum it lacks enforceability.
You may find foundations for those various positions to be specious in general, as do I. But alternatively focusing on one, and not the others, is tediously casuistic, and certainly, in terms of prospective analysis, completely unhelpful.
quote:
The Minsk accords didn’t target Russia.
No they didn't "target" Russia.
As Angela Merkel admitted, the Minsk Accords were duplicitous efforts promoted by the west under the guise of peace agreements. Their real design was never about regional peace, nor did the west have any intention of provisional enforcement against Ukraine for attacks on its own citizenry in accordance with the agreements. Rather the objective was simply to delay further Russian incursion until Ukraine could bolster its military.
In fact, had Minsk been a serious effort, with our backing, it could have worked. But that was never the intent.
quote:One man's "overblown," is another man's "existence." But the interrelated issue is their new societal bent to autocratic totalitarianism. My beef has nothing to do with "aid" of Ukrainian democracy. My beef is we undercut it ... and now may have destroyed it altogether.
I never considered we were giving aid to defend democracy.
And the Nazi thing is way over blown.
1
Posted on 9/25/24 at 7:12 am to Lee B
quote:I'm surprised you'd say that.
The Ukranian Constitution suspends elections in time of war
In fact, the Ukrainian Constitution does not suspend elections during wartime. In accordance with the Ukrainian Constitution, elections could absolutely have been held in normal course. They weren't.
Martial law was declared. Under it, the Ukrainian parliament passed measures suspending various constitutional provisions i.e., postponing/eliminating elections.
Not to compare the people, but rather just the suspension process, Ukraine's "emergency" suspension of normal constitutional operations is strongly reminiscent of methods employed to convert German democracy into a dictatorship 90yrs ago.
Just FWIW
Posted on 9/25/24 at 7:15 am to Lima Whiskey
British Defence Intelligence
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 25 September 2024
Russian forces have made further gains in the vicinity of Vuhledar in south-eastern Ukraine. It is highly likely that Russian forces now threaten the town from three sides. They are already contesting the outskirts of the town, against which Russia has made repeated assaults since 2022. It is likely that Russian forces will continue to pressure on this heavily defended part of the line over the next week.
In central Donetsk oblast, Russian forces are fighting within the eastern half of Toretsk and south of Pokrovsk. They have made only slow progress around Chasiv Yar. It is likely that Russian forces are attacking multiple objectives simultaneously to stretch Ukrainian forces. However, this has also prevented Russia from massing forces on a single point of the line to have a more significant effect.
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 25 September 2024
Russian forces have made further gains in the vicinity of Vuhledar in south-eastern Ukraine. It is highly likely that Russian forces now threaten the town from three sides. They are already contesting the outskirts of the town, against which Russia has made repeated assaults since 2022. It is likely that Russian forces will continue to pressure on this heavily defended part of the line over the next week.
In central Donetsk oblast, Russian forces are fighting within the eastern half of Toretsk and south of Pokrovsk. They have made only slow progress around Chasiv Yar. It is likely that Russian forces are attacking multiple objectives simultaneously to stretch Ukrainian forces. However, this has also prevented Russia from massing forces on a single point of the line to have a more significant effect.
Posted on 9/25/24 at 7:45 am to cypher
Poland’s Sikorski to Putin: You Are Putting Ukrainian Children in Camps Like Nazis Did in My Country
Warsaw’s top diplomat in a UN speech laced into Russia’s leadership. Invading Ukraine, kidnapping and brain-washing Ukrainian children are all war crimes and will be prosecuted, he said.
by Kyiv Post | September 25, 2024, 2:01 pm
Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski in a blistering Tuesday address to the UN Security Council in New York took down Russia’s national leadership for launching a war of aggression in Ukraine and committing thousands of war crimes, among them taking Ukrainian children away from their parents and training them to become loyal Russian citizens.
The immediate target of Sikorski’s highly undiplomatic, and at times eviscerating comments was Russian Ambassador to the UN Vasily Nebenzya, who, Sikorski said, had lied and peddled falsehoods about Moscow’s actions in Ukraine.
Nebenzya, in a speech preceding Sikorski’s during Security Council debate on the Russo-Ukrainian War, repeated longstanding Moscow messaging that Ukraine’s national leadership was fascist and Nazi and that Russia’s February 2022 main force military invasion of Ukraine was peacefully intended and legal.
Occupying Russian troops and officials have for the past 30 months rounded up thousands of Ukrainian children, against their parents’ will, and shipped them into Russia for adoption and re-education to make them loyal to the Moscow regime, Sikorski said.
“UN investigators concluded that these actions constitute war crimes. In October 2022 the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin. Ambassador Nebenzya and Russian propagandists like to refer to the democratically elected government of Ukraine as Nazis, as you have just heard,” Sikorski said.
The Kyiv Post
entire speech....
Warsaw’s top diplomat in a UN speech laced into Russia’s leadership. Invading Ukraine, kidnapping and brain-washing Ukrainian children are all war crimes and will be prosecuted, he said.
by Kyiv Post | September 25, 2024, 2:01 pm
Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski in a blistering Tuesday address to the UN Security Council in New York took down Russia’s national leadership for launching a war of aggression in Ukraine and committing thousands of war crimes, among them taking Ukrainian children away from their parents and training them to become loyal Russian citizens.
The immediate target of Sikorski’s highly undiplomatic, and at times eviscerating comments was Russian Ambassador to the UN Vasily Nebenzya, who, Sikorski said, had lied and peddled falsehoods about Moscow’s actions in Ukraine.
Nebenzya, in a speech preceding Sikorski’s during Security Council debate on the Russo-Ukrainian War, repeated longstanding Moscow messaging that Ukraine’s national leadership was fascist and Nazi and that Russia’s February 2022 main force military invasion of Ukraine was peacefully intended and legal.
Occupying Russian troops and officials have for the past 30 months rounded up thousands of Ukrainian children, against their parents’ will, and shipped them into Russia for adoption and re-education to make them loyal to the Moscow regime, Sikorski said.
“UN investigators concluded that these actions constitute war crimes. In October 2022 the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin. Ambassador Nebenzya and Russian propagandists like to refer to the democratically elected government of Ukraine as Nazis, as you have just heard,” Sikorski said.
The Kyiv Post
entire speech....
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here.This post was edited on 9/25/24 at 7:52 am
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:08 am to Lee B
quote:
All a giant pile of steaming bullshite... but I don't want to help you derail this thread any longer and you and anyone who agrees with you won't listen to facts that contradict your biases and prejudices anyway and sensible and informed people know better already.
Lying Leon Trotsky. You are a perfect example of what is wrong with this nation. Disgusting as hell.
You and neocon types like Bill.
Who is surprised that a war is all it takes to get members of the Leon Trotsky Party and the Neocons to start sucking each other off.
This post was edited on 9/25/24 at 8:22 am
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:11 am to NC_Tigah
The Ukrainian Constitution does not allow elections under Martial Law.
LINK
If you're going to argue being invaded is not a reasonable reason for the declaration of Martial Law... you're spouting nothing but nonsense...
So, what about the Ukrainian citizens in the occupied areas? Do they not get to vote in the election if it's held? Or is Ukraine to trust the people Russia has put in charge of those areas to accurately relay their votes?
Are you really suggesting that Russia would not bomb and target the polling places around the country, maximizing on people having to go to predetermined places to vote?
Would voter turnout be compromised if bombs start raining down on every city that morning and continues all day?
You're digging in on a trolling position.
And you're reminding of the people who declare that Lincoln was a tyrant for similar actions here during the Civil War, acting no different than Hitler... which is bullshite.
LINK
If you're going to argue being invaded is not a reasonable reason for the declaration of Martial Law... you're spouting nothing but nonsense...
So, what about the Ukrainian citizens in the occupied areas? Do they not get to vote in the election if it's held? Or is Ukraine to trust the people Russia has put in charge of those areas to accurately relay their votes?
Are you really suggesting that Russia would not bomb and target the polling places around the country, maximizing on people having to go to predetermined places to vote?
Would voter turnout be compromised if bombs start raining down on every city that morning and continues all day?
You're digging in on a trolling position.
And you're reminding of the people who declare that Lincoln was a tyrant for similar actions here during the Civil War, acting no different than Hitler... which is bullshite.
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:13 am to AU86
quote:
Lying Leon Trotsky. You are a perfect example of what is wrong with this nation. Disgusting as hell.
You and neocon types like Bill.
have a coronary Buttercup, nobody cares what you think.
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:14 am to Lee B
4 pages in less than one day. Did something big happen or are trindad and NC_Tigah just in here spewing their bullshite?
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:25 am to Lee B
POS like you are outraged by the invasion of Ukraine but you support the invasion of the US.
Your type are treasonous assholes.
Your type are treasonous assholes.
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:33 am to Lee B
quote:Here is what is said in your link:
The Ukrainian Constitution does not allow elections under Martial Law.
"Ukrainian legislation directly prohibits holding elections under martial law."
I can see where the line would be confusing.
But what it says is this:
"Martial law was declared. Under it, the Ukrainian parliament passed measures suspending various constitutional provisions i.e., postponing/eliminating elections."
quote:Not the argument
If you're going to argue being invaded is not a reasonable reason for the declaration of Martial Law...
quote:In posing that question, let's not be unburdened by the past. The US faced that dilemma. We held elections. Now, that does not mean Ukraine must do the same. But it does mean they have the choice, both constitutionally and logistically.
So, what about the Ukrainian citizens in the occupied areas? Do they not get to vote in the election if it's held?
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:36 am to WeeWee
quote:
Did something big happen
quote:You act as if those two alternatives are exclusive of one another.
or are trindad and NC_Tigah just in here
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:45 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
In posing that question, let's not be unburdened by the past. The US faced that dilemma
When was the US invaded, occupied, and held elections?
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:49 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Here is what is said in your link:
"Ukrainian legislation directly prohibits holding elections under martial law."
I can see where the line would be confusing.
But what it says is this:
"Martial law was declared. Under it, the Ukrainian parliament passed measures suspending various constitutional provisions i.e., postponing/eliminating elections."
quote:
If you're going to argue being invaded is not a reasonable reason for the declaration of Martial Law...
Not the argument
What does the Constitution say about it?
The Constitution of Ukraine prohibits holding elections to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine under martial law.
“According to Article 83 of the Constitution, parliamentary elections cannot be held during martial law. This article is interpreted in different ways, but in my opinion, it is straightforward and says clearly that the powers of the parliament, which operates during martial law, cannot be terminated. Accordingly, there can be no elections if the legislative branch’s powers cannot be suspended during martial law”
Aren't you the "muh reading comprehension!" guy?
Practice what you preach, Ace.
This post was edited on 9/25/24 at 8:50 am
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:51 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Rather the objective was simply to delay further Russian incursion until Ukraine could bolster its military.
Because they knew that Russia wasn’t going to honor any agreements. They had already captured Crimea, and were pushing in the Donbas.
The cease fire never happened, neither side stopped. In fact Russia committed more of their regulars.
Russia had no legal right to take Crimea of invade the Donbas, but its Angela Markel who is to blame?
Posted on 9/25/24 at 8:57 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
In posing that question, let's not be unburdened by the past. The US faced that dilemma. We held elections. Now, that does not mean Ukraine must do the same. But it does mean they have the choice, both constitutionally and logistically.
When did we hold elections with a foreign power holding 25% of our country, firing into our “free” cities, and with 20% of our population or more gone ftom their homes?
Posted on 9/25/24 at 9:02 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Did something big happen
quote:
or are trindad and NC_Tigah just in here
You act as if those two alternatives are exclusive of one another.
They are mutually exclusive. You and Trinidad disappear whenever anything big happens. Y'all show back up and run up the page count when there is a lull in the fighting on the ground.
Posted on 9/25/24 at 9:35 am to Lee B
quote:1862 and 1864
When was the US invaded, occupied, and held elections?
Posted on 9/25/24 at 9:50 am to WeeWee
quote:
Y'all show back up
I hate to burst your bubble, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
Posted on 9/25/24 at 9:57 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Y'all show back up
I hate to burst your bubble, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
That is because you are a narcissist and do not acknowledge things that don't prove you right.
Posted on 9/25/24 at 10:07 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
1862 and 1864
Not Great Britain during WWII. They were suspended.
FWIW, the "Union" had little to no fear of actual invasion by 1862 and definitely didn't by 1864. I state this as a descendent of a Confederate general
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