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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:26 am to doubleb
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:26 am to doubleb
quote:Come on now, doubleb. You're a bright guy. You know fully well that when it came to proclamations in behalf of NATO, Boris Johnson didn't blow his Rudolphian nose without Washington's expressed approval.
Is Boris Johnson an American?
But to drive that home, as you know, Blinken and Austin followed BJ's meeting with their own in Kyiv. Coming out of that meeting, Austin said the US wanted to see Russia’s military capabilities weakened, exactly the message Johnson conveyed a couple of weeks earlier.
2
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:34 am to NC_Tigah
Boris Johnson is an evil, evil man with a ton of blood on his hands.
This post was edited on 2/21/24 at 9:42 am
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:38 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
for anyone who actually wants to know the truth, here's the WSJ's chief foreign affairs correspondent, who has also now written a book on the conflict:
The WSJ is captured and editorialized by our intelligence agencies
This post was edited on 2/21/24 at 9:46 am
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:39 am to StormyMcMan
quote:Why?
Are you also going to post the articles where Putin says
Is it not your contention that everything Putin says is a lie? In concordance, is he not lying here as well?
quote:It's been discussed here.
Or the articles where Putin shot down a peace deal 3 days into the war?
Russia attempted negotiations for months leading up to Feb 22.
Once the invasion started, Putin expected Ukraine to collapse, and the Russian army to walk into Kyiv in a matter of weeks (just as we did). Rather than negotiating, he anticipated dictating terms at that point. He miscalculated ... badly.
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:44 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:Oh my.
It's only now, now that Putinists are trying to change history
Fiona Hill, Schröder, and multiple cited Ukrainian sources would be unhappy with that characterization.
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:47 am to NC_Tigah
Jeffrey Sachs was in the loop about a deal in late 2021 and got laughed at for promoting it.
LINK
And there have been about ten different confirmations of the April 2022 events now. The U.S. wanted to try to break Russia. Oh well.
quote:
This war was completely avoidable. The party in this conflict that actually sought diplomacy repeatedly was Russia.
Not something you'd read in the New York Times...
LINK
And there have been about ten different confirmations of the April 2022 events now. The U.S. wanted to try to break Russia. Oh well.
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:49 am to Bunk Moreland
It's a meat grinder for profit. The US is probably the most evil world power on the planet at this current moment (China excluded).
This post was edited on 2/21/24 at 10:16 am
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:49 am to NC_Tigah
Dmytro knows...
Dmytro Kuleba
@DmytroKuleba
To those who have missed the previous 30 years, here is a short list of the results of negotiations with Russia that it never respected:
1. The Budapest Memorandum of 1994. Russia agreed to “respect independence, sovereignty, and the existing borders of Ukraine” as well as “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine”. Breached by Russia invading Crimea in 2014.
2. The Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997. Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity and “reaffirmed the inviolability of the borders” between the two countries. Russia breached it in 2014.
3. The OSCE Istanbul Summit in 1999. Russia committed to withdrawing its troops from Moldova’s Transdniestrian region and Georgia until the end of 2002. That never happened.
4. The 2008 Georgia ceasefire agreement following Russian aggression against the country. Russia agreed that “Russian military forces must withdraw to the lines prior to the start of hostilities”. That never happened.
5. The Ilovaysk “Green Corridor” in August 2014 and other “humanitarian” death corridors. Russia pledged to let Ukrainian forces leave the encircled town of Ilovaysk in the east of Ukraine, but instead opened fire and killed 366 Ukrainian troops. In the following years, Russia attacked numerous humanitarian corridors in Syria.
6. The “Minsk” agreements of 2014 and 2015. Russia agreed to cease the fire in the east of Ukraine. There had been 200 rounds of talks and 20 attempts to enforce a ceasefire, all of which the Russian side promptly violated. On February 24th, 2022, Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
7. The 2022 Black Sea Grain Initiative. Russia pledged to “provide maximum assurances regarding a safe and secure environment for all vessels engaged in this initiative." It then hindered the initiative's operation for months before withdrawing unilaterally a year later.
NB: I am only focused on deals made with Russia to address specific issues and conflicts. I am not mentioning almost 400 international treaties that Russia has breached since 2014.
There are no conclusions to be drawn here, except that no one can seriously use the words "Russia" and "negotiations" in the same phrase.
Putin is a habitual liar who promised international leaders that he would not attack Ukraine days before his invasion in February 2022.
Russia's tactic has remained consistent in its many wars over the last three decades: kill, grab, lie, and deny.
Why would anyone genuinely believe that Russia in 2023 is any different from Russia in 1994, 1997, 1999, 2008, 2014, 2015, and 2022?
Dmytro Kuleba
@DmytroKuleba
To those who have missed the previous 30 years, here is a short list of the results of negotiations with Russia that it never respected:
1. The Budapest Memorandum of 1994. Russia agreed to “respect independence, sovereignty, and the existing borders of Ukraine” as well as “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine”. Breached by Russia invading Crimea in 2014.
2. The Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997. Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity and “reaffirmed the inviolability of the borders” between the two countries. Russia breached it in 2014.
3. The OSCE Istanbul Summit in 1999. Russia committed to withdrawing its troops from Moldova’s Transdniestrian region and Georgia until the end of 2002. That never happened.
4. The 2008 Georgia ceasefire agreement following Russian aggression against the country. Russia agreed that “Russian military forces must withdraw to the lines prior to the start of hostilities”. That never happened.
5. The Ilovaysk “Green Corridor” in August 2014 and other “humanitarian” death corridors. Russia pledged to let Ukrainian forces leave the encircled town of Ilovaysk in the east of Ukraine, but instead opened fire and killed 366 Ukrainian troops. In the following years, Russia attacked numerous humanitarian corridors in Syria.
6. The “Minsk” agreements of 2014 and 2015. Russia agreed to cease the fire in the east of Ukraine. There had been 200 rounds of talks and 20 attempts to enforce a ceasefire, all of which the Russian side promptly violated. On February 24th, 2022, Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
7. The 2022 Black Sea Grain Initiative. Russia pledged to “provide maximum assurances regarding a safe and secure environment for all vessels engaged in this initiative." It then hindered the initiative's operation for months before withdrawing unilaterally a year later.
NB: I am only focused on deals made with Russia to address specific issues and conflicts. I am not mentioning almost 400 international treaties that Russia has breached since 2014.
There are no conclusions to be drawn here, except that no one can seriously use the words "Russia" and "negotiations" in the same phrase.
Putin is a habitual liar who promised international leaders that he would not attack Ukraine days before his invasion in February 2022.
Russia's tactic has remained consistent in its many wars over the last three decades: kill, grab, lie, and deny.
Why would anyone genuinely believe that Russia in 2023 is any different from Russia in 1994, 1997, 1999, 2008, 2014, 2015, and 2022?
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:54 am to cypher
Even in the most Ukraine-friendly synopses that yall post, there is a 7 year gap where Russia showed no aggression.
Why is that ignored? From 2015 to 2022 the US (especially during the Obama and Biden years) was highly involved in Ukrainian politics, elections, investments, biolabs, infrastructure, and diplomatic positioning. Much of the latter was HIGHLY antagonistic to Russia.
Is 7 years of temperance and non aggression (a large portion of that timeline that previous poster pasted) by Russia really so insignificant? How many young Russian and Ukrainian men would die in 7 years of war?
Why is ending this stalemate for even 5 additional years of peace not a worthy goal? What about the damage on the environment that these folks are usually so concerned about?
Why is that ignored? From 2015 to 2022 the US (especially during the Obama and Biden years) was highly involved in Ukrainian politics, elections, investments, biolabs, infrastructure, and diplomatic positioning. Much of the latter was HIGHLY antagonistic to Russia.
Is 7 years of temperance and non aggression (a large portion of that timeline that previous poster pasted) by Russia really so insignificant? How many young Russian and Ukrainian men would die in 7 years of war?
Why is ending this stalemate for even 5 additional years of peace not a worthy goal? What about the damage on the environment that these folks are usually so concerned about?
This post was edited on 2/21/24 at 10:02 am
Posted on 2/21/24 at 9:55 am to SirWinston
Posted on 2/21/24 at 10:03 am to Bunk Moreland
I mean I get what that meme is trying to show, but why is the Vox headline there with the word mess highlighted?
I mean surely there was a better 4th example than that, and if not it kinda defeats its own intent
I mean surely there was a better 4th example than that, and if not it kinda defeats its own intent
Posted on 2/21/24 at 10:03 am to Coeur du Tigre
quote:
House Speaker Sam Rayburn. God, to have leaders like that again...
Oh holy shite no. Rayburn helped his buddy LBJ reach the presidency. LBJ was the most destructive and dangerous President we've ever had.
I cuss his name everytime I step foot in the Sam Rayburn VA in Bonham, TX.
This post was edited on 2/21/24 at 10:05 am
Posted on 2/21/24 at 10:05 am to cypher
quote:
Why would anyone genuinely believe that Russia in 2023 is any different from Russia in 1994, 1997, 1999, 2008, 2014, 2015, and 2022?
What did Russia do between 2015 and 2022 to provoke Ukraine?
What did Ukraine do between 2015 and 2022 to provoke Russia?
Posted on 2/21/24 at 10:07 am to El Segundo Guy
Daily reminder until the national security supplemental is voted on in the house.
Posted on 2/21/24 at 10:08 am to El Segundo Guy
quote:
Oh holy shite no. Rayburn helped his buddy LBJ reach the presidency. LBJ was the most destructive and dangerous President we've ever had.
Coeur du Tigre probably still thinks GHWB was a great American.
This post was edited on 2/21/24 at 10:27 am
Posted on 2/21/24 at 10:15 am to StormyMcMan
A major reason for Lend Lease was that replacements would have to be built AND this geared up the arms industry ahead of WWII, which most actually figured that the US end up being in the war. My dad joined the Navy in 1939 after seeing that we would likely get into it and he had walked enough as a farm boy and didn't want to walk in war.
Posted on 2/21/24 at 11:11 am to StormyMcMan
quote:It's a low res copy. Every All Caps word in both columns is highlighted
why is the Vox headline there with the word mess highlighted?
quote:
Posted on 2/21/24 at 11:20 am to SirWinston
quote:
What did Russia do between 2015 and 2022 to provoke Ukraine?
Continued to try to capture the Donbas, killing Ukrainian soliders throughout that time, and refused to extradite Yanukovych who was found guilty of treason in Ukraine.
Posted on 2/21/24 at 11:34 am to TigerDoc
quote:
Continued to try to capture the Donbas, killing Ukrainian soliders throughout that time, and refused to extradite Yanukovych who was found guilty of treason in Ukraine.
They also replaced many of the inhabitants of Crimea with Russians.
They built an illegal bridge from Russia to Crimea.
They used this bridge to heavily militarize Crimea.
This Russian military infrastructure and force in Crimea was then used in the full scale invasion in 2022.
This post was edited on 2/21/24 at 11:43 am
Posted on 2/21/24 at 11:46 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Come on now, doubleb. You're a bright guy
Exactly
quote:
You know fully well that when it came to proclamations in behalf of NATO, Boris Johnson didn't blow his Rudolphian nose without Washington's expressed approval.
Probably not, but I wasn’t the guy running over her claiming Johnson blew it all up.
quote:
But to drive that home, as you know, Blinken and Austin followed BJ's meeting with their own in Kyiv. Coming out of that meeting, Austin said the US wanted to see Russia’s military capabilities weakened, exactly the message Johnson conveyed a couple of weeks earlier.
What else could they say? They wanted Russia to get stronger?
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