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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 6/27/23 at 10:30 pm to GOP_Tiger
Posted on 6/27/23 at 10:30 pm to GOP_Tiger
I've been thinking a while about the Prigozhin mutiny, and I think I've finally come to a few conclusions:
1) I don't think that Prigozhin lost as significantly as others do, for (reasons to follow).
2) Putin lost as soon as Prigozhin began the mutiny. At that point, he had two options -- both bad. He could fight and defeat Wagner in a bloody battle that would have cost him a great deal of men and equipment (leading to imminent Ukrainian victories), or he could make a deal with Prigozhin, which makes him look weak.
3) The fact that the mutiny was directed at Shoigu and Gerasimov puts the two of them even more sharply in focus under the microscope. If Putin were to agree with Prigozhin's demand to fire them, that would indeed make Putin look weak. But keeping them now, after the mutiny, makes Putin even more responsible for their actions. No longer will people be able to pretend that Putin is ignorant of complaints about their failed leadership. If and when Ukraine succeeds in its counteroffensive and retakes the "land bridge," the Russian public will blame Putin himself, and not merely Shoigu and Gerasimov.
4) Putin still needs Wagner and Prigozhin. He still needs the troll farm. He still needs Wagner to work in Africa and elsewhere on Russia's behalf. That's why Wagner recruiting offices are still open across Russia. It's also why Putin isn't going to try to whack him.
5) Wagner soldiers are mostly loyal to Prigozhin. All of Wagner, not just Prigozhin, has mocked the pathetic and ineffective regular Russian troops. They have all made fun of and insulted Shoigu and Gerasimov. I think that very, very few will sign any kind of contract to work for the MoD and have Shoigu and Gerasimov as their bosses (for less money than Wagner pays, by the way). Those men will stay with Wagner.
6) There is a significant battlefield impact in the long run. Wagner has been out of Bakhmut for a month, which would normally be an appropriate amount of time to re-equip and resupply and give men a couple of weeks leave. This would now be the time to reinsert them into the fight, perhaps near Kreminna, where Russia has been attempting offensive action. The fact that Wagner was rotated out and will not be rotated back in will significantly lessen the availability of Russian reserves. Not to mention that Wagner was by far the most effective of all Russian units.
7) If Ukraine's offensive is successful, and the stink of failure on Shoigu and Gerasimov extends to Putin (as I think that it would), then many in Russia will say that Prigozhin tried to prevent those failures. "Prigozhin did everything he could to get Putin to get rid of Shoigu and Gerasimov, but Putin wouldn't listen to how incompetent they were," they will say.
8) If Ukraine's offensive is successful, then this episode will guarantee that Putin himself will bear much of the blame, and much of the Russian public will regard him not only as weak, but also as incompetent.
9) Prigozhin, assuming that he is still alive and well and in control of thousands of troops at that time, would have another opening.
1) I don't think that Prigozhin lost as significantly as others do, for (reasons to follow).
2) Putin lost as soon as Prigozhin began the mutiny. At that point, he had two options -- both bad. He could fight and defeat Wagner in a bloody battle that would have cost him a great deal of men and equipment (leading to imminent Ukrainian victories), or he could make a deal with Prigozhin, which makes him look weak.
3) The fact that the mutiny was directed at Shoigu and Gerasimov puts the two of them even more sharply in focus under the microscope. If Putin were to agree with Prigozhin's demand to fire them, that would indeed make Putin look weak. But keeping them now, after the mutiny, makes Putin even more responsible for their actions. No longer will people be able to pretend that Putin is ignorant of complaints about their failed leadership. If and when Ukraine succeeds in its counteroffensive and retakes the "land bridge," the Russian public will blame Putin himself, and not merely Shoigu and Gerasimov.
4) Putin still needs Wagner and Prigozhin. He still needs the troll farm. He still needs Wagner to work in Africa and elsewhere on Russia's behalf. That's why Wagner recruiting offices are still open across Russia. It's also why Putin isn't going to try to whack him.
5) Wagner soldiers are mostly loyal to Prigozhin. All of Wagner, not just Prigozhin, has mocked the pathetic and ineffective regular Russian troops. They have all made fun of and insulted Shoigu and Gerasimov. I think that very, very few will sign any kind of contract to work for the MoD and have Shoigu and Gerasimov as their bosses (for less money than Wagner pays, by the way). Those men will stay with Wagner.
6) There is a significant battlefield impact in the long run. Wagner has been out of Bakhmut for a month, which would normally be an appropriate amount of time to re-equip and resupply and give men a couple of weeks leave. This would now be the time to reinsert them into the fight, perhaps near Kreminna, where Russia has been attempting offensive action. The fact that Wagner was rotated out and will not be rotated back in will significantly lessen the availability of Russian reserves. Not to mention that Wagner was by far the most effective of all Russian units.
7) If Ukraine's offensive is successful, and the stink of failure on Shoigu and Gerasimov extends to Putin (as I think that it would), then many in Russia will say that Prigozhin tried to prevent those failures. "Prigozhin did everything he could to get Putin to get rid of Shoigu and Gerasimov, but Putin wouldn't listen to how incompetent they were," they will say.
8) If Ukraine's offensive is successful, then this episode will guarantee that Putin himself will bear much of the blame, and much of the Russian public will regard him not only as weak, but also as incompetent.
9) Prigozhin, assuming that he is still alive and well and in control of thousands of troops at that time, would have another opening.
Posted on 6/27/23 at 10:41 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Ukrainian POW gets medical treatment
Posted on 6/27/23 at 10:48 pm to Obtuse1
Skabeeva says the US knew about Prigs rebellion and was only worried about nuclear.
Non-Twitter video share
As to her last comment:

Non-Twitter video share
As to her last comment:

This post was edited on 6/27/23 at 11:09 pm
Posted on 6/27/23 at 11:08 pm to Athis
quote:
Ukrainian POW gets medical treatment
His name is Igor Balushky. He is in the 76th Guards Air Assault Division.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 1:03 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
I've been thinking a while about the Prigozhin mutiny, and I think I've finally come to a few conclusions:
1) I don't think that Prigozhin lost as significantly as others do, for (reasons to follow).
2) Putin lost as soon as Prigozhin began the mutiny. At that point, he had two options -- both bad. He could fight and defeat Wagner in a bloody battle that would have cost him a great deal of men and equipment (leading to imminent Ukrainian victories), or he could make a deal with Prigozhin, which makes him look weak.
3) The fact that the mutiny was directed at Shoigu and Gerasimov puts the two of them even more sharply in focus under the microscope. If Putin were to agree with Prigozhin's demand to fire them, that would indeed make Putin look weak. But keeping them now, after the mutiny, makes Putin even more responsible for their actions. No longer will people be able to pretend that Putin is ignorant of complaints about their failed leadership. If and when Ukraine succeeds in its counteroffensive and retakes the "land bridge," the Russian public will blame Putin himself, and not merely Shoigu and Gerasimov.
4) Putin still needs Wagner and Prigozhin. He still needs the troll farm. He still needs Wagner to work in Africa and elsewhere on Russia's behalf. That's why Wagner recruiting offices are still open across Russia. It's also why Putin isn't going to try to whack him.
5) Wagner soldiers are mostly loyal to Prigozhin. All of Wagner, not just Prigozhin, has mocked the pathetic and ineffective regular Russian troops. They have all made fun of and insulted Shoigu and Gerasimov. I think that very, very few will sign any kind of contract to work for the MoD and have Shoigu and Gerasimov as their bosses (for less money than Wagner pays, by the way). Those men will stay with Wagner.
6) There is a significant battlefield impact in the long run. Wagner has been out of Bakhmut for a month, which would normally be an appropriate amount of time to re-equip and resupply and give men a couple of weeks leave. This would now be the time to reinsert them into the fight, perhaps near Kreminna, where Russia has been attempting offensive action. The fact that Wagner was rotated out and will not be rotated back in will significantly lessen the availability of Russian reserves. Not to mention that Wagner was by far the most effective of all Russian units.
7) If Ukraine's offensive is successful, and the stink of failure on Shoigu and Gerasimov extends to Putin (as I think that it would), then many in Russia will say that Prigozhin tried to prevent those failures. "Prigozhin did everything he could to get Putin to get rid of Shoigu and Gerasimov, but Putin wouldn't listen to how incompetent they were," they will say.
8) If Ukraine's offensive is successful, then this episode will guarantee that Putin himself will bear much of the blame, and much of the Russian public will regard him not only as weak, but also as incompetent.
9) Prigozhin, assuming that he is still alive and well and in control of thousands of troops at that time, would have another opening.
Great analysis. When it comes to Putin now sharing the blame I think this very much the case. He was made to react and get up on stage to say the hard things himself in public because otherwise there was a decent chance this was going to escalate - something he has generally avoided doing.
Thus we see the need to sweep this away quickly and take the focus off him and the issues it highlighted since he attached himself to them so openly. The opening of this week has been a good example of this with the attempts to carry on like it is business as usual so questions don't get asked, even Prigozhin's on again off again charges now seem to have been dropped.
I do think Putin probably made the best of a very bad hand but this last weeks events showed Russia has significant internal issues in their military that appear to be endemic and won't just go away because of a few speeches. I think the MoD's attempt to get PMC's to sign with them was recognition of this and their attempt to neutralise the threat, they just miscalculated how badly Wagner would react.
What happens, vis a vis, Wagner and Prigozhin because of all this in the coming weeks is still up in the air for me until we see some more concrete movements and actions happen but if they are out of the war due to it then it is a win for Ukraine (maybe not for Luka and Belarus).
While I don't think it is the case for many reasons, if the whole saga has been constructed over the past 10 months purely to reopen a front with Ukraine in the north, it is one of the games of shells I have seen.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 1:46 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
The guy definitely could be a US Ranger, because tattoos, t shirts, etc with the historic insignia is also a thing. But if it was a Ranger scroll like above it wouldn't leave any room for doubt.
Cheers for the feedback
Posted on 6/28/23 at 5:11 am to OutsideObserver
British Defence Intelligence
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 28 June 2023
Early on the morning of 22 June 2023, Ukrainian Armed Forces struck the Chonhar road bridges between the Crimean Peninsula and Russian-occupied Kherson Oblast.
These bridges service one of two main road supply routes between Crimea and Kherson. The route over the Chonhar bridges are the most direct route from Russia's Crimean logistics hub at Dzhankoi and the Zaporizhzhia sector, where Russia is currently defending against a major Ukrainian offensive. The temporary closure of the route caused vital Russian logistics convoys to take at least 50% longer to reach the front via alternative routes.
Reports indicate that Russian authorities almost certainly constructed a pontoon bridge replacement crossing within 24 hours of the attack; it is highly likely that crossings are limited to military traffic only. The speed with which an alternate crossing was constructed indicates how vital this route is to the Russian military efforts in occupied Ukraine.
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 28 June 2023
Early on the morning of 22 June 2023, Ukrainian Armed Forces struck the Chonhar road bridges between the Crimean Peninsula and Russian-occupied Kherson Oblast.
These bridges service one of two main road supply routes between Crimea and Kherson. The route over the Chonhar bridges are the most direct route from Russia's Crimean logistics hub at Dzhankoi and the Zaporizhzhia sector, where Russia is currently defending against a major Ukrainian offensive. The temporary closure of the route caused vital Russian logistics convoys to take at least 50% longer to reach the front via alternative routes.
Reports indicate that Russian authorities almost certainly constructed a pontoon bridge replacement crossing within 24 hours of the attack; it is highly likely that crossings are limited to military traffic only. The speed with which an alternate crossing was constructed indicates how vital this route is to the Russian military efforts in occupied Ukraine.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 5:27 am to cypher
Attack on Kramatorsk: Russians kill 10 people including 3 children
STANISLAV POHORILOV — Wednesday, 28 June 2023, 12:48
The number of people killed by the Russians in Kramatorsk on the evening of 27 June has increased to 10, including 3 children, and 61 people were wounded.
Source: press service of the National Police of Ukraine
Quote: "10 killed and 61 wounded in Russian attack on Kramatorsk. The police continue to work at the scene of the attack. As of 11:30, three children were killed and one wounded."
Details: Among the dead are a 17-year-old girl and two 14-year-old sisters. An eight-month-old baby was injured, but his life is now no longer in danger.
Ukrainska Pravda
STANISLAV POHORILOV — Wednesday, 28 June 2023, 12:48
The number of people killed by the Russians in Kramatorsk on the evening of 27 June has increased to 10, including 3 children, and 61 people were wounded.
Source: press service of the National Police of Ukraine
Quote: "10 killed and 61 wounded in Russian attack on Kramatorsk. The police continue to work at the scene of the attack. As of 11:30, three children were killed and one wounded."
Details: Among the dead are a 17-year-old girl and two 14-year-old sisters. An eight-month-old baby was injured, but his life is now no longer in danger.
Ukrainska Pravda
Posted on 6/28/23 at 5:31 am to cypher
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1673803622142836737
Yes...you read that right.
quote:
A serving FSB officer and two lightly armed furries were among supporters of the Wagner Group who went out with their own weapons on the streets of Moscow on 24 June. All three were arrested before they could join the Wagnerites.
Yes...you read that right.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 5:37 am to OutsideObserver
quote:
two lightly armed furries
That's....weird.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 5:39 am to DMAN1968
quote:
That's....weird.
There's a meme or three in it, even if it's not true.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 5:52 am to OutsideObserver
I have no idea if this is accurate, and the telegram account does caveat that the information is preliminary and needs confirmation, however there is a NY times story claiming that Surovikin had prior knowledge about the Wagner debacle dropping as well. Could be another interesting weekend.
https://t.me/dosye_shpiona/361 - Russian
Tendar posted a link to the NY Time's article, but it is behind a paywall.
https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1673972979452051456
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/us/politics/russian-general-prigozhin-rebellion.html
Also this is being reported today.
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1673944333374963713
Edit: Clarity
https://t.me/dosye_shpiona/361 - Russian
Tendar posted a link to the NY Time's article, but it is behind a paywall.
https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1673972979452051456
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/us/politics/russian-general-prigozhin-rebellion.html
Also this is being reported today.
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1673944333374963713
quote:
#Russian Interior Ministry General Alexander Travnikov was involved in a serious ATV accident. He is in a hospital in critical condition.
Edit: Clarity
This post was edited on 6/28/23 at 5:54 am
Posted on 6/28/23 at 5:53 am to OutsideObserver
NY Times
US officials stirring the pot.
US officials stirring the pot.
quote:
A senior Russian general had advance knowledge of Yevgeny Prigozhin’s plans to rebel against Russia’s military leadership, according to U.S. officials briefed on American intelligence on the matter, which has prompted questions about what support the mercenary leader had inside the top ranks.
The officials said they are trying to learn if Gen. Sergei Surovikin, the former top Russian commander in Ukraine, helped plan Mr. Prigozhin’s actions last weekend, which posed the most dramatic threat to President Vladimir V. Putin in his 23 years in power.
General Surovikin is a respected military leader who helped shore up defenses across the battle lines after Ukraine’s counteroffensive last year, analysts say. He was replaced as the top commander in January but retained influence in running war operations and remains popular among the troops.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 6:06 am to GOP_Tiger
Actually, according to Rybar, the pot didn't even need stirring: LINK
quote:
The armed rebellion of PMC "Wagner" became the reason for large-scale purges in the ranks of the RF Armed Forces and a crash test of the ministry for loyalty. For several days now, investigators and representatives of the FSO have been working both on the leadership of military command and control bodies and on unit commanders.
“Indecisiveness” in suppressing the rebellion is the pretext on the basis of which they remove objectionable people and persons who have actually failed in the issues of combat training, mobilization and logistical support. At one time, Bulgakov, Mizintsev, Gorshenin were filmed for the collapse of the MTO system of the RF Armed Forces and reports that did not correspond to the situation. But the formal reason was the support of PMCs - and this is how it was presented to the public.
Exactly the same thing is now unfolding in all the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. The support of PMCs has become a litmus test against which the RF Armed Forces are scourged. Surovikin has not been seen since Saturday - it is not known for certain where General Armageddon is located, there is a version that he is under interrogation.
The actual leadership of the course of the special military operation is carried out by the commander of the Airborne Forces, Mikhail Teplinskiy. Valery Gerasimov formally retains the post of chief of the General Staff, but has nothing to do with resolving issues of the NMD.
But these cleansings concern not only the leadership - it also touched ordinary fighters with officers. Romanov writes about the pilots who refused to strike at mixed convoys with PMCs and civilians: they are now facing criminal prosecution. Two Majors report on border guards who did not open fire from small arms at a convoy of hundreds of pieces of equipment.
Such cases are an example of bureaucratic delirium and inertia of the system. In the conditions of the SVO and the loss of both the sides and the flight personnel, capable pilots are worth their weight in gold - they can prove their usefulness at the fronts in word and deed. The border guards, according to military bureaucrats, should have decided to commit suicide.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 6:59 am to GOP_Tiger
WSJ
This explains a lot.
This explains a lot.
quote:
Prigozhin originally intended to capture Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and Gen. Valery Gerasimov, the chief of Russia’s general staff, during a visit to a southern region that borders Ukraine that the two were planning. But the Federal Security Service, or FSB, found out about the plan two days before it was to be executed, according to Western officials.
quote:
Western intelligence agencies also found out early about the plans by Prigozhin, Putin’s former confidant, by analyzing electronic communications intercepts and satellite imagery, according to a person familiar with the findings. Western officials said they believe the original plot had a good chance of success but failed after the conspiracy was leaked, forcing Prigozhin to improvise an alternative plan.
quote:
Made aware of the leak, Prigozhin was then forced to act sooner than planned on Friday and managed to capture the southern Russian city of Rostov, a key command point for the invasion of Ukraine.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 7:36 am to GOP_Tiger
Latest Update - Gonzalo Lira is still under house arrest in the Democratic utopia of Ukraine.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 7:38 am to ItNeverRains
Nice… you spew propaganda on the internet against the country you live in, they might not like it.
Posted on 6/28/23 at 7:39 am to ItNeverRains
quote:
Latest Update - Gonzalo Lira is still under house arrest in the Democratic utopia of Ukraine.
quote:
ItNeverRains
Was he your online dating coach?
Posted on 6/28/23 at 7:40 am to GOP_Tiger
Some reports of frontline progress this morning for Ukraine. We'll obviously look for confirmation of these claims.
LINK
The 47th operates due north of Tokmak.
There's also a Ukrainian report of progress near Klischiivka, just south of Bakhmut, including the surrender of some Russian troops:
LINK
quote:
“Yesterday was a day of assaults. We have advanced very deep,” Senior Sergeant Valery Markus of the 47th mechanized brigade reports this morning about the southern direction.
The 47th operates due north of Tokmak.
There's also a Ukrainian report of progress near Klischiivka, just south of Bakhmut, including the surrender of some Russian troops:
quote:
"Part of the forces of the paratroopers near Klishchiivka surrendered half an hour ago. There are still some who have communication problems and don't know about it, so they will soon be informed and told to surrender or die."
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