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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:14 am to
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:14 am to
quote:

Totally agree. I'm just on the fence of what the self preservation line looks like



It would have to be on the level of Barbarossa or Napoleon's Russian campaign.
Posted by molsusports
Member since Jul 2004
37518 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:21 am to
quote:


It would have to be on the level of Barbarossa or Napoleon's Russian campaign


That would be a rational assumption. Crimea is a strategic advantage for protecting naval power. The loss would be undesirable but not an existential threat. Russia was an international power in both 2013 and 2015. Crimea doesn't change that.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:41 am to
quote:

That would be a rational assumption. Crimea is a strategic advantage for protecting naval power. The loss would be undesirable but not an existential threat. Russia was an international power in both 2013 and 2015. Crimea doesn't change that.



Arguably, Russia's worry that Ukraine's potential relationship with the West would affect their lease on Sevastopol was myopic. From a military point of view, the Black Sea is a lake due to the Montreaux Convention, and in terms of the long-term consequences, Russia has much less access to naval waters now than if it did nothing at all with respect to Ukraine. Paramount in all of this is Russian security concerns, but if they acted in a positive-sum manner, and actually sought closer relations with the West, those security concerns would disappear. Western nations are perfectly fine with their own soft power imperialism, and in truth would be happy for the Russians to have their own effective sphere of influence over certain regions if the Russians would be more amenable to softer relations. The US, the UK, France, and Turkey have all participated in various security campaigns in regions where they have historical associations or pressing security concerns, so it isn't like the West is against interventionism as a whole. Russia's general antagonism toward the West creates a worse security situation for themselves than if they had no concerns at all. It's a paradox for the Russians and one they won't ever be able to figure out.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:59 am to
quote:

Russia's general antagonism toward the West creates a worse security situation for themselves than if they had no concerns at all. It's a paradox for the Russians and one they won't ever be able to figure out.


This is absolutely true and a great point. If, for example, Russia had refrained from relentlessly supporting anti-American efforts in Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua, would the US have given Ukraine as much support? I think not.

Russia continues to actively insist that it is the enemy of the US and the West -- much more so than even China does. That's a big reason for the depth of NATO aid to Ukraine.

This war is going to end, once and for all, Russia's ambition to maintain its identity as a great power in opposition to the West. Russia will be too poor and too weak for that to continue.
Posted by Hateradedrink
Member since May 2023
4156 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:04 am to
I agree. I’m wondering where “Russia” self preservation ends and “Putin” self preservation begins.
Posted by klrstix
Shreveport, LA
Member since Oct 2006
3569 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:16 am to
quote:

And while China might not outright condemn,...


I can't imagine that China would be ok or on the fence with any neighbor setting off nukes of any kind in their neck of the world...

Posted by XenScott
Pensacola
Member since Oct 2016
4152 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:16 am to
The Russians have a generally myopic distrust of the “West”. They have been invaded 40 or so times from the “West”. They see anything bad in the world and blame it on the “West”. They see themselves in an existential conflict from Europe
that has been going on for a couple of centuries. It’s sad really. Mothers dutifully send their sons to wars to be fodder for incompetent Military and political leaders.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:31 am to
quote:

This war is going to end, once and for all, Russia's ambition to maintain its identity as a great power in opposition to the West. Russia will be too poor and too weak for that to continue.


Can we do China next? Cause they’re the real threat to “the west.” This Ukraine thing is a neat little side show in the global power struggle.
Posted by ticklechain
Forgotten coast
Member since Mar 2018
834 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:41 am to
Probably somewhere around an attempted decapitation strike.
Posted by ned nederlander
Member since Dec 2012
5895 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:48 am to
quote:

This is absolutely true and a great point. If, for example, Russia had refrained from relentlessly supporting anti-American efforts in Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua, would the US have given Ukraine as much support? I think not.


A non-belligerent Russia would also end NATO.

It is interesting to think about. WWII basically saw the end of three empires:

1. The UK
2. Germany
3. Japan

None of those three have harbored any aspirations of territorial expansion or global dominion since, and have instead become economic super powers with the regional influence that comes with that.

How different would the world look today if Russia had attempted a simile path after the Cold War.

And it’s not like you can’t create global mischief as a cloistered, autocratic petro-state. I mean who wouldn’t want to listen to Tchaikovsky the next time they present the green jacket at the Masters.
Posted by momentoftruth87
Your mom
Member since Oct 2013
86110 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:49 am to
quote:

Russia continues to actively insist that it is the enemy of the US and the West -- much more so than even China does. That's a big reason for the depth of NATO aid to Ukraine.


Lol what? So Russia is ineffective against Ukraine, according to this thread, so China isn’t a threat? Come on man, china is our greatest threat and way more capable than Russia.

Both China and Russia are tied up with Ukraine war and China in many other countries. I’ll agree Russia has less to lose than China and I have seen they will go all out eventually, but China has way better weapons and way more ppl in that situation. China can also collapse at any moment but they are certainly more of a threat currently and long term. Russia is less dependent on us than China.

Also, China is way more vocal in hatred and threat towards the US. The fact Kyiv hasn’t been messed with or Ukraine attacking Russia still sticks with Russia putting a gap In between them and NATO. Most of these areas in Ukraine also have a lot of Russian supporting citizens or did before the war. Russia is certainly bleeding us though and taking our eyes off a lot of things, especially in the pacific , which is what the military has focused on the last decade.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105280 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:51 am to
quote:

Can we do China next? Cause they’re the real threat to “the west.” This Ukraine thing is a neat little side show in the global power struggle.


In 2022 China recorded it's lowest number of marriages in 40 years. It's population implosion is accelerating.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28555 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:52 am to
quote:

How different would the world look today if Russia had attempted a simile path after the Cold War.

For more than a decade it appeared that Russia was on this path. Things would be better for the human condition on this planet had Russia stuck with the program.
Posted by momentoftruth87
Your mom
Member since Oct 2013
86110 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:53 am to
Russia is worse than China dealing with that but yes China has a lot of issues and hopefully one day their citizens take down the govt.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:56 am to
quote:

A non-belligerent Russia would also end NATO.

Lol. That’s cute
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:00 am to
quote:

Can we do China next? Cause they’re the real threat to “the west.” This Ukraine thing is a neat little side show in the global power struggle.



I actually think that in the context of Western-Chinese relations, the Russo-Ukrainian War is a great showcase of what might occur to the Chinese if they act on their territorial ambitions. The way Russia handled the West is also illustrative of exactly what not to do in international relations. China could effectively secure Taiwan through trade and investment alone, as outright antagonism is always going to be a paradox for them as well, with even antagonistic rhetoric leading to a poor security situation for the Chinese.

If the Chinese are wise, they will learn from the West's reaction that Western democracies are far more robust than authoritarian leaders seem to think.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:13 am to
I don’t think the situations are very similar at all. I seriously doubt Europe is going to contribute much of anything. First of all Europe is full of a bunch selfish losers. And second, even if Europe wanted to help it’s not like any of them even have the capability to move men or equipment to the other side of the world. For all the fun we make of Russia’s ineptness, they’re still more powerful militarily than any western country not named the USA. Hell, the great European powers couldn’t even bomb fricking Libya without daddy’s help with gas and bullets back in 2013.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:16 am to
quote:

The Russians have a generally myopic distrust of the “West”. They have been invaded 40 or so times from the “West”. They see anything bad in the world and blame it on the “West”. They see themselves in an existential conflict from Europe
that has been going on for a couple of centuries. It’s sad really. Mothers dutifully send their sons to wars to be fodder for incompetent Military and political leaders.


Well, there are a lot of historical rivalries between sovernign states that have disappeared in geopolitical terms due to closer relations and, most importantly, economic integration. The Germans and the French fought 3 wars within 70 years, killing millions of people, changing the world forever, and yet within 150 years, the leaders of their respective countries held hands at the Glade of the Armistice, 100 years after the end of the hostilities on the Western Front. LINK

We don't remark about how the geopolitical tensions inside Europe itself were completely obliterated by nothing more than the vision and thoughtfulness of its leaders, who chose the bureaucratic route rather than the military route to deal with their problems. For all the issues and complaints with bureaucracy, it always presents a better solution than violence. For all the complaints about NATO expansion, very few in the wider mainstream media have seemingly pointed out that the Russians chose this path themselves.
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15671 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:20 am to
NATO has kept the peace among member nations for decades.

I don't see Russia joining NATO for decades. The ultra nationalists are as bad or worse than Putin.

It's the ultra nationalist who are saying to nuke the world.

Russian thinking is not like that in the West. Trying to use logic applied to western thought to determine their moves is self defeating. Their economy is wrecked so that isn't a huge deterrent.

Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:20 am to
Weather forecast for the rest of the week in southern Ukraine is partly cloudy with a chance of a thunderstorm each day.
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