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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:14 am to ticklechain
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:14 am to ticklechain
quote:
Totally agree. I'm just on the fence of what the self preservation line looks like
It would have to be on the level of Barbarossa or Napoleon's Russian campaign.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:21 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
It would have to be on the level of Barbarossa or Napoleon's Russian campaign
That would be a rational assumption. Crimea is a strategic advantage for protecting naval power. The loss would be undesirable but not an existential threat. Russia was an international power in both 2013 and 2015. Crimea doesn't change that.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:41 am to molsusports
quote:
That would be a rational assumption. Crimea is a strategic advantage for protecting naval power. The loss would be undesirable but not an existential threat. Russia was an international power in both 2013 and 2015. Crimea doesn't change that.
Arguably, Russia's worry that Ukraine's potential relationship with the West would affect their lease on Sevastopol was myopic. From a military point of view, the Black Sea is a lake due to the Montreaux Convention, and in terms of the long-term consequences, Russia has much less access to naval waters now than if it did nothing at all with respect to Ukraine. Paramount in all of this is Russian security concerns, but if they acted in a positive-sum manner, and actually sought closer relations with the West, those security concerns would disappear. Western nations are perfectly fine with their own soft power imperialism, and in truth would be happy for the Russians to have their own effective sphere of influence over certain regions if the Russians would be more amenable to softer relations. The US, the UK, France, and Turkey have all participated in various security campaigns in regions where they have historical associations or pressing security concerns, so it isn't like the West is against interventionism as a whole. Russia's general antagonism toward the West creates a worse security situation for themselves than if they had no concerns at all. It's a paradox for the Russians and one they won't ever be able to figure out.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 8:59 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Russia's general antagonism toward the West creates a worse security situation for themselves than if they had no concerns at all. It's a paradox for the Russians and one they won't ever be able to figure out.
This is absolutely true and a great point. If, for example, Russia had refrained from relentlessly supporting anti-American efforts in Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua, would the US have given Ukraine as much support? I think not.
Russia continues to actively insist that it is the enemy of the US and the West -- much more so than even China does. That's a big reason for the depth of NATO aid to Ukraine.
This war is going to end, once and for all, Russia's ambition to maintain its identity as a great power in opposition to the West. Russia will be too poor and too weak for that to continue.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:04 am to ticklechain
I agree. I’m wondering where “Russia” self preservation ends and “Putin” self preservation begins.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:16 am to OleVaught14
quote:
And while China might not outright condemn,...
I can't imagine that China would be ok or on the fence with any neighbor setting off nukes of any kind in their neck of the world...
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:16 am to crazy4lsu
The Russians have a generally myopic distrust of the “West”. They have been invaded 40 or so times from the “West”. They see anything bad in the world and blame it on the “West”. They see themselves in an existential conflict from Europe
that has been going on for a couple of centuries. It’s sad really. Mothers dutifully send their sons to wars to be fodder for incompetent Military and political leaders.
that has been going on for a couple of centuries. It’s sad really. Mothers dutifully send their sons to wars to be fodder for incompetent Military and political leaders.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:31 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
This war is going to end, once and for all, Russia's ambition to maintain its identity as a great power in opposition to the West. Russia will be too poor and too weak for that to continue.
Can we do China next? Cause they’re the real threat to “the west.” This Ukraine thing is a neat little side show in the global power struggle.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:41 am to Hateradedrink
Probably somewhere around an attempted decapitation strike.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:48 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
This is absolutely true and a great point. If, for example, Russia had refrained from relentlessly supporting anti-American efforts in Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua, would the US have given Ukraine as much support? I think not.
A non-belligerent Russia would also end NATO.
It is interesting to think about. WWII basically saw the end of three empires:
1. The UK
2. Germany
3. Japan
None of those three have harbored any aspirations of territorial expansion or global dominion since, and have instead become economic super powers with the regional influence that comes with that.
How different would the world look today if Russia had attempted a simile path after the Cold War.
And it’s not like you can’t create global mischief as a cloistered, autocratic petro-state. I mean who wouldn’t want to listen to Tchaikovsky the next time they present the green jacket at the Masters.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:49 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Russia continues to actively insist that it is the enemy of the US and the West -- much more so than even China does. That's a big reason for the depth of NATO aid to Ukraine.
Lol what? So Russia is ineffective against Ukraine, according to this thread, so China isn’t a threat? Come on man, china is our greatest threat and way more capable than Russia.
Both China and Russia are tied up with Ukraine war and China in many other countries. I’ll agree Russia has less to lose than China and I have seen they will go all out eventually, but China has way better weapons and way more ppl in that situation. China can also collapse at any moment but they are certainly more of a threat currently and long term. Russia is less dependent on us than China.
Also, China is way more vocal in hatred and threat towards the US. The fact Kyiv hasn’t been messed with or Ukraine attacking Russia still sticks with Russia putting a gap In between them and NATO. Most of these areas in Ukraine also have a lot of Russian supporting citizens or did before the war. Russia is certainly bleeding us though and taking our eyes off a lot of things, especially in the pacific , which is what the military has focused on the last decade.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:51 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Can we do China next? Cause they’re the real threat to “the west.” This Ukraine thing is a neat little side show in the global power struggle.
In 2022 China recorded it's lowest number of marriages in 40 years. It's population implosion is accelerating.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:52 am to ned nederlander
quote:
How different would the world look today if Russia had attempted a simile path after the Cold War.
For more than a decade it appeared that Russia was on this path. Things would be better for the human condition on this planet had Russia stuck with the program.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:53 am to Jim Rockford
Russia is worse than China dealing with that but yes China has a lot of issues and hopefully one day their citizens take down the govt.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 9:56 am to ned nederlander
quote:
A non-belligerent Russia would also end NATO.
Lol. That’s cute
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:00 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Can we do China next? Cause they’re the real threat to “the west.” This Ukraine thing is a neat little side show in the global power struggle.
I actually think that in the context of Western-Chinese relations, the Russo-Ukrainian War is a great showcase of what might occur to the Chinese if they act on their territorial ambitions. The way Russia handled the West is also illustrative of exactly what not to do in international relations. China could effectively secure Taiwan through trade and investment alone, as outright antagonism is always going to be a paradox for them as well, with even antagonistic rhetoric leading to a poor security situation for the Chinese.
If the Chinese are wise, they will learn from the West's reaction that Western democracies are far more robust than authoritarian leaders seem to think.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:13 am to crazy4lsu
I don’t think the situations are very similar at all. I seriously doubt Europe is going to contribute much of anything. First of all Europe is full of a bunch selfish losers. And second, even if Europe wanted to help it’s not like any of them even have the capability to move men or equipment to the other side of the world. For all the fun we make of Russia’s ineptness, they’re still more powerful militarily than any western country not named the USA. Hell, the great European powers couldn’t even bomb fricking Libya without daddy’s help with gas and bullets back in 2013.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:16 am to XenScott
quote:
The Russians have a generally myopic distrust of the “West”. They have been invaded 40 or so times from the “West”. They see anything bad in the world and blame it on the “West”. They see themselves in an existential conflict from Europe
that has been going on for a couple of centuries. It’s sad really. Mothers dutifully send their sons to wars to be fodder for incompetent Military and political leaders.
Well, there are a lot of historical rivalries between sovernign states that have disappeared in geopolitical terms due to closer relations and, most importantly, economic integration. The Germans and the French fought 3 wars within 70 years, killing millions of people, changing the world forever, and yet within 150 years, the leaders of their respective countries held hands at the Glade of the Armistice, 100 years after the end of the hostilities on the Western Front. LINK
We don't remark about how the geopolitical tensions inside Europe itself were completely obliterated by nothing more than the vision and thoughtfulness of its leaders, who chose the bureaucratic route rather than the military route to deal with their problems. For all the issues and complaints with bureaucracy, it always presents a better solution than violence. For all the complaints about NATO expansion, very few in the wider mainstream media have seemingly pointed out that the Russians chose this path themselves.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:20 am to GeauxxxTigers23
NATO has kept the peace among member nations for decades.
I don't see Russia joining NATO for decades. The ultra nationalists are as bad or worse than Putin.
It's the ultra nationalist who are saying to nuke the world.
Russian thinking is not like that in the West. Trying to use logic applied to western thought to determine their moves is self defeating. Their economy is wrecked so that isn't a huge deterrent.
I don't see Russia joining NATO for decades. The ultra nationalists are as bad or worse than Putin.
It's the ultra nationalist who are saying to nuke the world.
Russian thinking is not like that in the West. Trying to use logic applied to western thought to determine their moves is self defeating. Their economy is wrecked so that isn't a huge deterrent.
Posted on 6/12/23 at 10:20 am to crazy4lsu
Weather forecast for the rest of the week in southern Ukraine is partly cloudy with a chance of a thunderstorm each day.
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