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Posted on 5/16/23 at 11:11 am to Pettifogger
quote:
These arguments are reasonable and go into the soup, IMO. But they're also somewhat romanticized and skip over that US motives may have little to do with Ukraine's freedom, saving lives, etc.
I don’t disagree. The goal is to save American lives, to defend our national interests and to preserve our way of life.
Naive? Sure, but that’s what we are supposed to do.
This post was edited on 5/16/23 at 11:17 am
Posted on 5/16/23 at 11:15 am to lowspark12
quote:
In the fall of 1918, Germany was holding onto more of France and Belgium than they started with. Yet somehow it was a complete and total disaster… why?… bc the costs of those gains couldn’t be sustained.
Understood, but right now people are for peace at all costs. Gains realized by Russia would remain Russian just as 1916 German gain would have remained German if there was a stoppage of war.
Wd do not know if Russia can maintain their gain, or even if they may gain more territory. But we know right now Russia is ahead.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 11:17 am to Chromdome35
quote:Let us count the ways...
The only reason why PMCs are still roaming around is the fact that everyone does it.
Prigozhin’s Wagner
Shoigu's Patriot
Oleg Deripaska and Gennadiy Timchenko's Redut, Shield and Redoubt
Kadyrov's 141st Special Motorized Regiment
Konstantin Pikalov and Sergey Aksyonov's Convoy
Gazprom's Potok, Alexander Nevsky, Fakel and Plamya
Alexander Borodai's Union of Donbas Volunteers
And many more, additions almost every day:
quote:
“Say that you are Kremlin affiliated and have a relationship with Putin, you’re a businessman or an oligarch,” Stepanenko said. “You can go to Putin and you can advertise for your own little military that can contribute to the war effort and Putin can authorize provision of shells or ammo to your army, bypassing the Russian Ministry of Defense. This is what happened with Wagner.”
“If you have a good relationship, you can definitely bypass the formality of the Ministry of Defense and acquire sufficient ammunition and shells to push for your own agenda.”
quote:
There’s also money to consider. Wagner's income went up in 2022 compared to 2021, due to its big role in Donbas. Oligarchs are also trying to stake claims on businesses in occupied territories.
quote:
Just having a force of loyal, heavily-armed men doesn't hurt either.
"They're preparing for a transfer of power, they understand perfectly that the distribution of power in Russia will only be among the powerful," said Osechkin.
LINK
Posted on 5/16/23 at 12:03 pm to Coeur du Tigre
That bit I said earlier? That we might not know until the end of the war? Forget it. This is the US we're talking about. We're pathetic.
LINK
LINK
quote:
A Patriot system was likely damaged but not destroyed by a Russian missile barrage Monday night, a US official tells @NatashaBertrand. US is still assessing the damage which to determine whether the system needs to be pulled back entirely or be repaired by the Ukrainians.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 12:11 pm to GOP_Tiger
Oof. Not good.
Surely they moved it around, right? Because the Patriot battery got a ton of publicity after shooting down the Kinzhal. Was there only one launcher in Ukraine? Because I swear I saw something that said that they had one the whole time that was there to protect the embassy.
Surely they moved it around, right? Because the Patriot battery got a ton of publicity after shooting down the Kinzhal. Was there only one launcher in Ukraine? Because I swear I saw something that said that they had one the whole time that was there to protect the embassy.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 12:15 pm to IAmNERD
A Patriot battery is comprised of multiple components that are distributed. What is in question is what the Russian missile hit exactly.
More than likely the radar.
ETA: https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1658445345746038788
More than likely the radar.
ETA: https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1658445345746038788
quote:
Ukrainians received around 20 M902 Patriot launchers. If they use half with PAC-3 (left) and half with PAC-2 (right) they have 160 missile interceptors and 40 aircraft interceptors ready to launch.
This post was edited on 5/16/23 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 5/16/23 at 12:25 pm to Chromdome35
Yeah I knew it was made up of multiple components, I didn't realize they had received so many launchers. So with the redundancy is the Patriot battery still functional? Just diminished depending on what was hit?
Posted on 5/16/23 at 12:28 pm to IAmNERD
Probably depends on what was hit, if it was a launcher, then the system is still functional just at a reduced capacity.
Didn't I read in this thread in the last month or so that Ukraine was being provided with some type of integrated advanced air defense system that took all of the available incoming data and automatically assigned targets based on the available munitions?
Didn't I read in this thread in the last month or so that Ukraine was being provided with some type of integrated advanced air defense system that took all of the available incoming data and automatically assigned targets based on the available munitions?
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:11 pm to Chromdome35
LINK
@noclador and @John_A_Ridge are saying the same thing.
quote:
I’ve received word through the grapevine from UKR air defenders that damage to Patriot (if any) was minimal. I’m NOT saying that’s concrete fact — just that it’s what local forces are saying.
They seem increasingly confident in their AD capability.
@noclador and @John_A_Ridge are saying the same thing.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:36 pm to GOP_Tiger
Well, I see you already had his quote!
I think this is going to be a big nothing burger.
Do you remember the posts about an Advanced Integrated Air Defense system being given to Ukraine. Its software that ties all their Air Defense assets together.
I think this is going to be a big nothing burger.
Do you remember the posts about an Advanced Integrated Air Defense system being given to Ukraine. Its software that ties all their Air Defense assets together.
This post was edited on 5/16/23 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 5/16/23 at 1:46 pm to Coeur du Tigre
Found it
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/10/army-gives-northrop-289m-for-ibcs-missile-defense-network/
quote:
“Per the Pentagon papers Ukraine received an Integrated Air and Missile Defense (IAMD) Battle Command System (IBCS) Engagement Operations Center (EOC).”
Significant because this is not second or third generation equipment from storage, this is a brand new ‘hyper modern’ system. Evidently the US Army doesn’t even have these yet.
What is it? Well, from @John_A_Ridge, the “EOC (Engagement Operations Center) will be able to provide C2 [Command and Control] to any and all Western radars and SAMs that Ukraine operates, bypassing their organic C2 centers.”
The ”Integrated Fire Control Network relays, which enable individual radars and launchers to be deployed 150+ km from the EOC. This can greatly increase the geographic area a fixed number of assets can defend.”
“It should also enable Ukraine to more directly integrate with US/NATO AEW&C aircraft and other sensors. In other words, it should automate the process through which NATO is able to pass tracking and targeting data to Ukrainian AD assets.” So evidently, this system would provide state of the software air defense from all threats.
Now... let’s revisit those pontoon bridges across the Dniper.
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/10/army-gives-northrop-289m-for-ibcs-missile-defense-network/
Posted on 5/16/23 at 2:06 pm to doubleb
quote:
Understood, but right now people are for peace at all costs. Gains realized by Russia would remain Russian just as 1916 German gain would have remained German if there was a stoppage of war.
I haven't seen any indication of people being "for peace at all costs" with the exception of the American right wing. Russia has not expressed any interest in peace. Their propaganda machine is ramped up for full-scale genocide. The Ukrainians have no choice in the matter and are going to fight to defend themselves against the genocide promised by the Russians. Europe wants Russia to go back to Russia and stay there. I just don't see any practical advocacy "for peace at all costs" except as a tool to lock in Russia's conquest up to now.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 2:21 pm to TBoy
quote:
I haven't seen any indication of people being "for peace at all costs" with the exception of the American right wing
They American Right wing doesn't want to see peace at any cost. The American Right wing sees this as a regional conflict between two corrupt governments that we have no business supporting either side in.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 2:31 pm to TBoy
quote:
I haven't seen any indication of people being "for peace at all costs" with the exception of the American right wing
And there you have it.
quote:
The Ukrainians have no choice in the matter and are going to fight to defend themselves against the genocide promised by the Russians
And T goes 2 fo2!!!
quote:
I just don't see any practical advocacy "for peace at all costs" except as a tool to lock in Russia's conquest up to now.
It’s a hat trick!!!
This post was edited on 5/16/23 at 2:32 pm
Posted on 5/16/23 at 2:35 pm to TigerFanatic99
Correctly stated it is not the American Right but the Far Right which shares the ideas of the Far Left and sources of info
Posted on 5/16/23 at 3:07 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Saw tweets saying "Last night's interceptions were not Patriot. The angle was too steep."
1) Patriot launches at a 38° angle (see pic)
2) PAC-3 interceptors can immediately maneuver after launch
3) PAC-3 M902 launchers hold 16 missiles, NASAMS only 6
It was a Patriot launch.
Also, a PAC-3 CRI interceptor was photographed on the street in Kyiv this morning.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 3:19 pm to CitizenK
quote:
Correctly stated it is not the American Right but the Far Right which shares the ideas of the Far Left and sources of info
Politics is a circle.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 3:45 pm to IAmNERD
if the Unicorn (i.e. Patriot) was indeed hit by a Kinzhal hypersonic missile at terminal velocity then there is absolutely nothing left to it and there is nothing to fix because its burned metal now. Those Kinzhal hypersonic missiles travel at over 7000 miles per hour.
The loss of the Unicorn in Ukraine also means $1.7 billion went up in flames.
The loss of the Unicorn in Ukraine also means $1.7 billion went up in flames.
Posted on 5/16/23 at 3:59 pm to MrLSU
quote:
The loss of the Unicorn in Ukraine also means $1.7 billion went up in flames.
Do you understand how Patriot batteries are structured? It's a bunch of standalone components scattered over a large area. The only way to take out an entire battery with one missile would be to use a Nuke. At most, one component was damaged or destroyed; however, it appears the only damage was from falling debris.
So, no it wasn't $1.7B.
This post was edited on 5/16/23 at 4:00 pm
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