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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:07 am to
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
138898 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:07 am to
quote:

The end goal of pretty much all of the right wing so-called "anti-war" messaging is not to end war or conflict. The goal is to pressure the west to stop aiding Ukraine in its resistance to Russia's armed invasion. The only result of that would be to assist Russia in its military conquest. None of the right wing messaging is aimed at pressuring Russia to do anything.

This is complete and utter nonsense.

This is the classical "if you're not for war with Russia, you're a Putin lover" nonsense that we've been hearing from you retards since 2016. It's insane to see how you liberals have gone from doves to making John Bolton blush in such short order.
Posted by nitwit
Member since Oct 2007
13091 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:08 am to
I do not see how a stalemate serves Russia's long term goals and it seems to me that such a stalemate would be inherently unstable.
Assuming that Russia maintains a direct presence in the east, maintenance of troops there in the fact of insurgencies and a newly armed, highly motivated military presence in Ukraine will be extremely expensive and troublesome for Putin. Russia will be an occupying force with formidable opposition. What is Putin's end-game here, short of total subjugation (which is likely not attainable)?
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28555 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:09 am to
quote:

This is complete and utter nonsense.

Are you advocating for the west to stop aiding Ukraine in its resistance to Russia's armed invasion?
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15671 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:10 am to
More like Alt Right and Far Left, not Right Wing. With Alt Right and Far Left pretty much the same just different Yeehaw
This post was edited on 4/17/23 at 11:11 am
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
138898 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:17 am to
quote:

Are you advocating for the west to stop aiding Ukraine in its resistance to Russia's armed invasion?


I'm sick and tired of spending money we don't have on fighting wars that will only end in costing us even more money. In the best case scenario, Ukraine wins and we end up printing trillions of dollars to send there only to have it stolen by both Ukrainians and US contractors then funneled back to groups and politicians in the US. Why are you so willing to do that?
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28555 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:19 am to
quote:

I'm sick and tired of spending money we don't have on fighting wars that will only end in costing us even more money. In the best case scenario, Ukraine wins and we end up printing trillions of dollars to send there only to have it stolen by both Ukrainians and US contractors then funneled back to groups and politicians in the US. Why are you so willing to do that?

The shorter and more correct answer would have been "Yes, I advocate for an end to support to Ukraine to resist Russia's invasion."

And from your comments it appears that the only way to "save money" would be to allow Russia to militarily conquer Ukraine.

Your position is noted. And it is, in fact, a position of support for Russia's invasion.
This post was edited on 4/17/23 at 11:23 am
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
138898 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:21 am to
quote:

The shorter and more correct answer would have been "Yes, I advocate for an end to support to Ukraine to resist Russia's invasion."

How much money are you willing to spend in Ukraine? Tell me at what number you'd say "enough".
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:36 am to
quote:

Ok, then tell me what a full scale European invasion looks like and what the Russians' goals would be. There's no situation that ends well for Russia nor are there any real attainable goals, especially in the medium to long term. Again, this is fantasy.



Russia's goals are explicit, which are to break what they call the Anglo-American axis and reassert their dominance of Slavic regions, in Central Asia, and to compete in the Far East. Their strategy has been to undermine the entirety of Western Europe through either capital, trade, or espionage. Dugin stated what the goals should be for the new Russia in 1997, and that wing of Russian politics has followed those goals pretty clearly. Since 2002, when the US withdrew from the ABM Treaty, Russia was convinced that the US was targeted Russia, and that's the pivotal event, along with Putin's election and the Orange Revolution, that started a new competition between Russia and the West.

From reading Dugin, you definitely get the sense that hardcore Russian supremacists have 'cosmic' goals, as in they believe this struggle to reassert Russian dominance is one that could take centuries, which should give some pause to Russian actions in the early 2000s.

Without this poorly timed invasion, I think their strategy of slowly trying to split the Western Alliance apart may have worked, given how many myopic morons don't see the need for NATO anymore, which is also an odd thing given that many are concerned with the money spent on Ukraine. These people want to give up the money we spent in Europe, as well as the blood we gave up, for no real reason. The return on investment from being involved in European rebuilding efforts has been tremendous. It doesn't make sense from any point of view to give that up to 'focus on China' or some nonsense like that.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42606 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:41 am to
quote:

I can't blame them from wanting in by creating a defense based on an automatic tribbering of a Title 5 response but a large scale incursion into Scandanavia is, again, pure fantasy. You could make the case for the Baltics, though.


You could make a case for Russia nibbling away at Finland too.

European countries have fought Russian imperialism for decades and they can understand the threat better than we can.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30448 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:44 am to
quote:

Ok, then tell me what a full scale European invasion looks like and what the Russians' goals would be. There's no situation that ends well for Russia nor are there any real attainable goals, especially in the medium to long term. Again, this is fantasy.


I don't think a full-scale European invasion was the real concern. The real concern was with systematic little bites here and there which is what they have been doing. Ukraine is the current target and odds are the next up on their dance card WAS Trinistria/Moldova. You don't have to be Rasputin to predict the imperial dreams have resurfaced just look what they have done over the last couple of decades and they were going to continue until someone stopped them.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:45 am to
quote:

The real concern was with systematic little bites here and there which is what they have been doing.


Approriate clip from the show Yes, Prime Minister.
LINK
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
150128 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:46 am to
There is a zero percent chance russia would have ever launched some large scale invasion into poland even if we were weak on our response to Ukraine

However, could they have made some play to set up a corridor to kaliningrad and played on the "is this worth it" sentiment? Maybe. Thats the extent though. And thankfully he aint gonna do that now that weve shown we wont back down
This post was edited on 4/17/23 at 11:47 am
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
138898 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:50 am to
The issue was that NATO relied on the US so heavily for national defense that they not only allowed their militaries to atrophy, but also farmed out their strategic needs (energy) to their alleged enemy while neglecting to meet their basic financial obligations to the organization. That's the reason people were asking if NATO was really worth it.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:58 am to
quote:

The issue was that NATO relied on the US so heavily for national defense that they not only allowed their militaries to atrophy


I mean, it was mainly Germany and people need to understand that the limits placed on German military was by design. France and Turkey, as well as the Eastern European states, have seen lots of internal investment, with the Turks spending lots to develop an internal defense industry. In addition, another artificial constraint on European military power is that they are all in a defensive pact with one another, but their procurement isn't streamlined to reflect that. The 2% GDP goal only started in 2014, in the midst of the recovery from an economic downturn.
Posted by Lakeboy7
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2011
28324 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 11:58 am to
Do you understand that is exactly what we want right?

Now our hammer in the region, Germany, has been traded in for Poland.
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
138898 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 12:01 pm to
quote:

Do you understand that is exactly what we want right?

Now our hammer in the region, Germany, has been traded in for Poland.


Ok
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15671 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 12:03 pm to
quote:

I'm sick and tired of spending money we don't have on fighting wars that will only end in costing us even more money. In the best case scenario, Ukraine wins and we end up printing trillions of dollars to send there only to have it stolen by both Ukrainians and US contractors then funneled back to groups and politicians in the US. Why are you so willing to do that?


So you mean sending arms which have already been replaced is funneling money to contractors?

What we have found is that "just in time delivery" arms industry wasn't prepared for conventional combat. We have been geared for COIN type warfare instead force on force with even remotely near peer warfare. We have also found that N. Korea artillery ammo is not reliable to do its job.
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
138898 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 12:05 pm to
quote:

So you mean sending arms which have already been replaced is funneling money to contractors?

I'm clearly talking about rebuilding. You think there won't be massive corruption?

quote:

What we have found is that "just in time delivery" arms industry wasn't prepared for conventional combat. We have been geared for COIN type warfare instead force on force with even remotely near peer warfare. We have also found that N. Korea artillery ammo is not reliable to do its job.

OK
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105280 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

It doesn't make sense from any point of view to give that up to 'focus on China' or some nonsense like that.


That's a red herring too. They don't want to focus on China either. There are already calls to abandon Taiwan. Our embrace of globalism over the last few decades has often been taken to excess, and a reassessment of goals is warranted. But hard core America First didn't work then and it won't work now.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 4/17/23 at 12:13 pm to
quote:

I mean, it was mainly Germany and people need to understand that the limits placed on German military was by design.


Who placed limits on the German military? They aren’t the only Western Europeans with a shite arse military. Italy, the UK, Spain etc are all dogshit.
quote:

In addition, another artificial constraint on European military power is that they are all in a defensive pact with one another


It’s not a constraint, they could have invested more but chose instead to invest in entitlement programs. And it wasn’t a defense pact with “one another” that encouraged them to spend less on their militaries. In reality NATO is a pact that says the US will defend Russia from Europe so they can provide taxpayer funded healthcare and education instead of having to worry about pesky things like national defense.

Outside of maybe France, Europe is a bunch of useless freeloaders.
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